Electric cars head toward another dead end

On 9 Feb 2013 20:04:35 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:


I bought my ranger - 16 years old and 307,000km on the clock, and it had NEVER carried a load more than a few bags of salt or topsoil. First week I had it I hauled 200 sq feet of half rotted cedar 2X6 to the dump.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 9 Feb 2013 20:04:35 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

A majority of the "pick-em-up" trucks I see on the road these days, you would need a step ladder to get anything over the side and into the box.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 16:33:39 -0600, Vic Smith

MOST pickup trucks are personal vehicles that virtually never carry a load - just like MOST 4X4 "off road" or "trail rated" vehicles never go off-road.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 9 Feb 2013 14:00:36 -0800 (PST), jon_banquer

This is a car tech group. I stick mostly to that. You're a political monkey. Here's my last words to you. Go fuck yourself.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 16:35:35 -0600, Vic Smith

Good advice that it appears bonkers has been dedicated to for quite some time. Although he does have a linkedin group apparently, and we all know how difficult those are to set up and finance. http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-to-create-a-linkedin-group.pageCd-storyboard,pageNum-1.html I sent that link to my aunty because she likes to discuss pie baking. Hopefully her friends won't treat her invites to join the same as I do all my linkedin horseshit spam.
Anyway if linkedin blogs could run on "bumps" and self promotion then bonker's could have made it to Mars and back by now. http://tinyurl.com/b594au6
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 15:44:46 -0800, whoyakidding's ghost

Linkedin membership is just the new hightech way to broadcast to everyone "Hi everybody!!!. I'm a looser and just got fired _ I'm looking for some sucker to hire me!!!"
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 19:00:52 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Yeah but it doesn't seem to have worked for him. Unless bonker found someone to pay him to write "bump" a lot, he appears to remain unemployed and unemployable. Maybe he should try a different high tech broadcasting system next time. Batten down the hatches famville, bonker needs a new manure spreader.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 17:18:47 -0800, whoyakidding's ghost

Nobody said iut was an EFFECTIVE way to actually find a job - but about 90% of the requests to join LinkedIn that I have recieved have come from those who have either last their job or were very dis-satisfied with the job they still held.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Vic Smith wrote:

Only one of the three groups you are posting to is about cars.
news:rec.crafts.metalworking news:comp.cad.solidworks news:rec.autos.tech
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Stuart Wheaton wrote:

Where are they going to get all this free electricity? The 'grid' is coming apart at the seams as it is, due to the greenies and NIMBYS. The power plants are aging, and running near full capacity. Very few new plants or upgrades are making it through the maze of conflicting regulations, and the BS that Obama calls 'Science'. What happens if a car breaks down on thet 'third rail'? It sounds like the formula to kill thousands (or millions) of greenies every year.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/10/2013 11:23 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Good idea. Do we get to vote on that?
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 12:23:24 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

Very well stated.
I suspect Stuart read far too much Heinlein when he wrote about the Roads.
Gunner
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Gunner wrote:

And Venus Equinox with their Martian tubes that took energy directly from the Sun and turned it into electricity. Interesting Science Fiction for when it was written. :)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Which nation is this without vandals or terrorists, where everyone keeps their car in perfect condition and always obeys orders? I've driven in German, Austrian and Swiss traffic and it definitely isn't any of them, though they are a lot closer than America.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
news:24254123-4df0-4a62-a895- -Seems to me we should be building a lot more modern nuclear power -plants and creating a real mass transportation system. We aren't even -building real high speed rail. We build medium speed rail.
-"The biggest trouble in going to rail is the "last mile" problem of -getting around when you reach your destination city."
-I agree.
We can't even find the money to maintain our existing bridges properly. http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba761 "This means that only half of the state's fuel taxes are used for highway construction and maintenance"
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Having helped build some I have an interest in electric vehicles. So Thursday when I picked up an ordered part at the Honda dealer I checked their showroom.
Every car in there was gas-only.
I pretended to be interested in a hybrid and the salesman tried to talk me out of them based on the extremely long payback period and our relatively short stretches of stop-and-go traffic. The gasoline 2013 Civic is rated at 39MPG, the hybrid only 5 MPG better for another $6000. http://automobiles.honda.com/shop/civics.aspx?ef_id=URabeQAABZqpuYBm:20130209185449:s
I had a 1978 Accord that routinely gave me 36 - 38 MPG so I know they can do it. I logged every drop of gas and oil that went into that car as well as all the maintenance.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

e
=======================This is going to take a some time to respond to all of your post so I will respond in pieces as time permits.

I was responding directly to his statements
1) "he believes fuel-cell vehicles hold far more promise than battery electric cars." 2) "Because of its shortcomings ? driving range, cost and recharging time the electric vehicle is not a viable replacement for most conventional cars,"

ing

As I read his statement I believe it to be about EV's not Hybrids.
I also wonder what the "total" environmental impact of manufacturing the cars, producing electricity for, as well as disposal after the battery and/or cars reach the end of their serviceable life.
Every rechargeable battery has a finite charge cycle and loses capacity on each recharge. What's the impact of deep discharge vs. partial discharge, etc., etc. As battery packs get used up are they still Hybrid's or just gas cars carrying an unusable battery pack?
Tom
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
"I do wonder about the Tesla tho. That car seems to have broken thru some mileage barriers, but it's tough to separate hype from price from reality. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highway.html?_r=0
"But as I discovered on a recent test drive of the companys high- performance Model S sedan, theory can be trumped by reality, especially when Northeast temperatures plunge."
"At the Washington Auto Show last month, Dr. Chu, who has since announced his plan to leave office in the next few weeks, discussed the Energy Departments goal of making electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids as cheap and convenient as comparable gasoline-powered cars.
He continued: We cant say this everywhere in America yet, but driving by a gasoline station and smiling is something everyone should experience.
I drove a state-of-the-art electric vehicle past a lot of gas stations. I wasnt smiling.
Instead, I spent nearly an hour at the Milford service plaza as the Tesla sucked electrons from the hitching post. When I continued my drive, the display read 185 miles, well beyond the distance I intended to cover before returning to the station the next morning for a recharge and returning to Manhattan.
I drove, slowly, to Stonington, Conn., for dinner and spent the night in Groton, a total distance of 79 miles. When I parked the car, its computer said I had 90 miles of range, twice the 46 miles back to Milford. It was a different story at 8:30 the next morning. The thermometer read 10 degrees and the display showed 25 miles of remaining range the electrical equivalent of someone having siphoned off more than two-thirds of the fuel that was in the tank when I parked.
I called Tesla in California, and the official I woke up said I needed to condition the battery pack to restore the lost energy. That meant sitting in the car for half an hour with the heat on a low setting. (There is now a mobile application for warming the battery remotely; it was not available at the time of my test drive.)
After completing the battery conditioning process, the estimated range reading was 19 miles; no way would I make it back to Milford.
The Tesla people found an E.V. charging facility that Norwich Public Utilities had recently installed. Norwich, an old mill town on the Thames River, was only 11 miles away, though in the opposite direction from Milford.
After making arrangements to recharge at the Norwich station, I located the proper adapter in the trunk, plugged in and walked to the only warm place nearby, Butchs Luncheonette and Breakfast Club, an establishment (smoking allowed) where only members can buy a cup of coffee or a plate of eggs. But the owners let me wait there while the Model S drank its juice. Teslas experts said that pumping in a little energy would help restore the power lost overnight as a result of the cold weather, and after an hour they cleared me to resume the trip to Milford.
Looking back, I should have bought a membership to Butchs and spent a few hours there while the car charged. The displayed range never reached the number of miles remaining to Milford, and as I limped along at about 45 miles per hour I saw increasingly dire dashboard warnings to recharge immediately. Mr. Merendino, the product planner, found an E.V. charging station about five miles away.
But the Model S had other ideas. Car is shutting down, the computer informed me. I was able to coast down an exit ramp in Branford, Conn., before the car made good on its threat.
Teslas New York service manager, Adam Williams, found a towing service in Milford that sent a skilled and very patient driver, Rick Ibsen, to rescue me with a flatbed truck. Not so quick: the cars electrically actuated parking brake would not release without battery power, and hooking the cars 12-volt charging post behind the front grille to the tow trucks portable charger would not release the brake. So he had to drag it onto the flatbed, a painstaking process that took 45 minutes. Fortunately, the cab of the tow truck was toasty.
At 2:40 p.m., we pulled into the Milford rest stop, five hours after I had left Groton on a trip that should have taken less than an hour. Mr. Ibsen carefully maneuvered the flatbed close to the charging kiosk, and 25 minutes later, with the battery sufficiently charged to release the parking brake and drive off the truck, the car was back on the ground. A Model S owner who had taken delivery the previous day watched with interest." =============================================================My reading comprehension is a little low..... So what did the Tesla finally wind up with, as a range?
I'm gathering about 100 miles?? Which is about what the Leaf claims. But indeed, temp. dependent.
Tesla was claiming 240, 300 miles. Downhill with a tailwind?? lol
They have an 85 kW-hr battery. 15 hp (for about 60 mph) is about 10 kW, which should last 8.5 hrs. 8.5 hrs x 60 mph is pert near a 500 mi range.... ???
I also read that Tesla will not let reviewers actually take the car home, they can only test under supervision -- which apparently changed in this NYTimes article -- and if the range is only 100 mi, now we know why.
The Tesla makes the Volt look like a bargain. I wonder what Tesla's batteries cost, and how long they last. Dat super-fast charging doesn't help batt life, either.
--
EA








Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highway.html?_r=0

Oh, dat $465 million gummint loan was an eye-opener. Sheeit, I'd be up and running and in bidniss too, if I had a $465 million loan.... lol
--
EA


> --
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Then you aren't qualified to run a business under Obama's New Economic Policy: http://www.publicintegrity.org/environment/energy/solyndra?gclid=CL7v6oL9q7UCFUiRPAod5WIAsw
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.