Hardince HC Chucker -- someone needs help

I visited an interesting guy today, to whom I sold some VFD drives, to
set up one for him. Which was easy. (I am selling 3 HP drives for $100
a pop)
Then he showed me his Hardinge HC chucker. It did not work right. He
never ran it because of it. He hooked it up to his phase converter and
it ran, however the speed adjustment knobs never worked.
After a few minutes of running some "click" was heard and it stopped
and would not restart.
Just to be clear, we never hooked up his hardinge to any VFDs, I
told him not to do it due to a jumble of relays in the control box.
Is there anyone here who knows how these HCs work?
Why would it click and not restart?
Why is the motor that actuates the threaded rod that drives the speed
adjustment hinge, never runs?
This is not for me, it is for him. He is a NRA member and an all
around great guy. If he could spend a few minutes on the phone with
someone he would be delighted. He can make gun parts for you.
Reply to
Ignoramus8671
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Iggy, give me some more information about your VFD drives, please. I already have 3 phase in my shop, however, I am considering a VFD simply for speed control. Questions: Can a 3hp drive run a 2 hp motor, or do they have to be matched? Does your 3hp VFD work with 3phase input, or do I need to run on single phase? How do I buy from you?
Ivan Vegvary
Reply to
Ivan Vegvary
The motor has to have a horsepower that the VFD can handle, but any HP below that is OK.
Works with single phase, only up to 2 HP motors.
The person I visited today, used it on a Bridgeport and Index mills.
i
Reply to
Ignoramus8671
...
When I was looking for a VFD and researching the ones that came up on eBay, there was one that said it shouldn't be used on motors of less than a certain hp. It didn't say why and I'm not saying that it's always true, just a heads-up that it can be the case that a VFD is too large for a motor.
Bob
Reply to
Bob Engelhardt
What's the specs and controls on the drives, and will they fit in a Priority Mail box? It might be time for me to replace the rotary phase converter I use on my Bridgeport (1HP).
Pete C.
Reply to
Pete C.
Sounds to me the Hardinge is running. The pop is likely a re-settable temp thermal breaker. An overload is present. I don't have one.
Is there a back gear lock engaged ? spindle lock ? shipping that way ?
I would hope a Hardige owner / user would step in .
Martin Sheldon owner/user
Martin H. Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal. NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
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Reply to
Martin H. Eastburn
Definitely the time. Rotary phase converters are so 1970s.
They are rated 2.2 kW (3 HP). They run bridgeports just fine.
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They have electric brakes too.
Will not fit into flat rate boxes.
I also have 3.7 kW drives. Those are for bigger machines.
Reply to
Ignoramus8671
We couldnot find one, and also why would it pop???
No. It spun just fine. And then, click -- and it stopped.
Reply to
Ignoramus8671
Motors have end bell red buttons. Some might be just internal. I had some that way.
Might be a current sensing unit in a power I/O box.
I have no idea what the control looks like - mine is a barrel switch and a motor with belts and gears.
Many are electronic speed control in a lathe foot or cabinet.
Thermal breaker has a push out button. It pops.
I wasn't there so I can't say if a Klixon clicked or that was the back gear that was jammed and the friction drive was used with to much back force. [ Klixon is or was a Texas Instrument temperature switch of high quality - bi-metal plate that flexes and that might be the pop.]
Rather hard to diagnose since I have not seen one or touched it.
Can you say were the pop came from ? Any more input ?
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal. NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
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Reply to
Martin H. Eastburn
Just thinking.
Was it shipped in with the "Half nut lever" engaged ? And the end stop or tail stock was run up against it ? or it on the Headstock?
Is the Feed clutch in drive in/out and the cross slide is at and end ?
e.g. is the front lead screw turning for some reason ? Not a basic function.
The spindle might be dry and heats up. The pop might be a bushing expanding or the like.
Didn't say that the machine stopped when it popped.
More input is needed.
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal. NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
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Mart> Motors have end bell red buttons.
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Reply to
Martin H. Eastburn
Martin, do you know these Hardinges, as it seems? Can that guy talk to you perhaps? He is a super guy, NRA and whatever.
i
Reply to
Ignoramus24782
Yea, but it works and it cost me abour $10 to build.
Ok, how do I order two? Remove the .DOH. to email me.
Pete C.
Reply to
Pete C.
mailed
Reply to
Ignoramus24782
Iggy, I know someone that may be interested in a VFD also,drop me a line please. goo1959 AT hotmail.com
Reply to
Greg O
There is probably a motor starter with a thermal overload. Most of those have to be manually reset. Usually there is a reset button on them. But, there must be a problem causing excessive motor current to cause that to trip. My first guess is to check that the motor is not wired for 440 V. If it was originally, then the thermal heaters in the motor control have to be changed for 240 V, as the current will double.
Again, could be a voltage conversion problem, there ought to be taps on the control transformer. After checking that, there is most likely a phase shift cap and some relays to run the motor. Check that the relays are working, could be dirty contacts after long disuse, or a bad capacitor.
Jon
Reply to
Jon Elson
Yep. That was my suspicion too. I asked this question. The guy said that according to the seller, "the lathe was wired for 208v".
In my experience, 440v motors just flat out do not run on 220, but the lathe ran OK.
Could be. I was reluctant to work on it that much due to the lathe not being mine. I would not hesitate to buy it for very little and fix. But as it was not mine, I decided not to mess with it too much beyond just looking.
Reply to
Ignoramus24782
I know lathes in general - not the Hardinges. I have a nice Sheldon that Dad and I bought together as a young boy.
When little we had three boarders renting rooms (very large house) and using one side of our 100'x100' shop. They made steam engines that took heavy duty four wheel trailers and a commercial truck to pull (early 50's). I had the pleasure of meeting one of them four years ago! Still a machinist, he was top notch - working for special defense projects. Now retired.
If I knew 1/10 of their knowledge I could write books.
If we get more inputs and insights - we might be able to sort things out.
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal. NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
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Reply to
Martin H. Eastburn
snip -
this sounds suspiciously like a Y versus Delta problem - that might be worth checking out
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Reply to
William Noble
And you have to re-jumper the control transformer, main contactor coils and any other line-powered gear inside from 480V to 208/240V.
And if that power is coming from a phase converter (either kind) all the control power has to be coming from the two "real" phases - the 'manufactured leg' can only be used for the motor load(s).
They'll sit there and hum, and if you spin them up with a pull-rope they'll try turning for a few seconds and stop. DAMHIKT, of course - it even had me going "???" for about thirty seconds...
"But it ran just fine at the used machinery brokers..." snapped me out of it.
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Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman
I do indeed work on Hardinge lathes
Iggy, have him call me. If he can use a VOM, Ill walk him through some stuff.
Btw..the thermal breakers are located on the big black relay across the bottom of the control box. Pull them out, then push them in.
The vari-drive motor may not run for a number of reasons, from the limit switches in the acme rod motor housing being out of place, (turn off power and hand turn to a mid rod position and pull the limit rod up and down a couple times)
Any thermal breaker popping will kill the main contactor with the possible exception of the coolant thermal (depending on age) That was probably the CLICK you heard.
Frankly..given the complexity of some of the electrical stuff in the control..not electronic..but electrical...I recommend ripping out all the Stuff except the drum swiitches (2 or one in some), setting the vari drive rod to mid range, and using the drum switches to control a VFD, running a 3hp motor..the old one being a double wound 2 speed, with a max of 1.5 hp on most. Often a Doer motor (save it..they are worth a fair amount to those too stupid to install a VFD) Keep the coolant switch and wire the VFDs aux output to the hand/off/auto coolant switch for the coolant pump via a suitable low voltage relay if the machine is equipped with coolant pump (or add one)
What torque you lose on the low rpms, you make up for it with the 3hp motor. Program max RPMs to give you no more than 3000 rpm at the spindle. Bearings are only good for about 3500 rpm for long runs and over 3000 ...the life goes down quickly. Id be happy to do a spindle bearing change for him...and Im one of the cheapest in the business. It will only cost travel, mileage and $500 PLUS the cost of the bearings......but..shrug..run em as fast as you can afford.....
Hardinge parts are available..usually..from Hardinge or scrap machines, but if buying from Hardinge, be prepared to offer up your first born in trade . They make Clausing look like a discount house.
Ill be doing this conversion shortly on my English made Hardinge TFB. The one once rewired by a deslyxic, color blind Italian short order cook.
Doing a conversion is easy, takes about half a day total if you plan ahead and stick all the fcontrol stuff in the existing control head shell with a new cover. There is room enough even for a tach if you plan right. A Hall effect switch can be easily put on the ass end of the spindle between the collet closer and the headstock.if you want a true RPM gauge.. The VFD may..may fit inside the old control cabinet. Some are too tall, in which case I suggest pulling off the old control cabinet, putting on a "shelf" to shield the VFD, and bolting it directly to the side of the machine, or in a can if you choose, but you will lose the handle controls that run the drum switch ..but switches will fit nicely in the existing control head, and a thin multi cable run down the pipe holding the control head.
Gunner, Coyote Engineering OmniTurn and NC/manual Hardinge repair Plant maint and industrial electrical
805-732-5308
Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
Reply to
Gunner Asch

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