History of Machine Tools

Just a thought or two. When you make your parallels make at least 4 of each matched size. I have 3 matched sets and could have used a fourth set at times.

Make the angle blocks, very handy for inspection, layout, and part setup. Anything you can make now, do it. Good experience and it'll cost more to buy or make later.

michael

What size parallels do you suggest? I was just going to measure the ones we have around the shop and make a few sets of the same sizes.

chem

michael wrote:

"That's something I can't do very quickly. But it's something I could practice as much as I like because when I'm in the shop I'm pretty much always in front of my mill."

How about:

Ask someone who you think has talent and works with manual machines for a living in a job shop if they think it's important.

Ask others in this newsgroup what their opinion is. Consider the opinions of those you decide know what their doing.

Ask someone by e-mail that you respect if they agree with my opinion.

"We've been told that unless we're just drilling or reaming we should move the knee instead of using the quill because of rigidity issues with the quill."

When roughing with an endmill you want to do everything possible to get as much rigidity as possible. I do not agree that when drilling or reaming you should be concerned about how much of the quill is exposed. IMO, the quill is much more accurate, in Z travel compared to raising and lowering the knee. Consider the following. :>)

Ask someone who you think has talent and works with manual machines for a living in a job shop if they think it's important.

Ask others in this newsgroup what their opinion is. Consider the opinions of those you decide know what their doing.

Ask someone by e-mail that you respect if they agree with my opinion.

:>)

"Not yet. I'm not even sure if we'll be covering that. I've seen it in a few videos I've watched, but haven't done it myself."

IMO, also very important to be able to do quickly. If you wish I can provide an aerospace example of why it is important and why a manual knee mill is often used to do this kind of work in many CNC machine shops.

"If I understand your question, there's no lead screw on it. It's just a couple of set screws that you loosen to slide the middle section out."

If you get a chance try and look at any commercial boring head so you can see how it is designed so that it can move short distances accurately. Does your school have something like a Bridgeport or a Criterion boring head that you can examine so that you can see how they have been designed to accomplish this task ?

"We won't be doing CNC until after Christmas, but I'm sure I'll have questions about it then."

Perhaps before... depends on you and how much you can or want to absorb. :>)

"Hey, cool with me. Thanks for showing so much interest!"

IMO you will find others, like I have, that will give you "the shirt off their back" when it comes to sharing their knowledge. After you have found others like this you may notice, like I have, that they all fit a pattern that others don't.

"Yeah, money's pretty tight right now with school and all, so I'm all for making a few things."

If you don't you will either have to buy them or spend your time hunting for the shop tools / asking to use someone else's. I never felt I had the time to do this as I wanted to use my time on other things. I also like knowing what my tools can do rather than being surprised by a tool that I don't know. All depends on what your comfortable with and willing to accept or not accept.

"Angle blocks - well, I don't even know what they're for"

Here are just a few possible uses:

Instead of "throwing" the head on a knee mill, use an angle block.

It's can be very hard to "throw" the head on a surface grinder. ;>)

"Height stand - They don't have us make one in school anyway, but I'm curious about this one. How complicated is it to make? Do you use a dial indicator with it?"

Not very complicated. It's all in the design and most designs suck because they don't have a precise enough adjustment to *easily* allow you to move in tenths. The concept of how to do this is similar to controlling movement of a boring head. The most complex thing you would need is a piece of spring steel. Yes, you use a dial indicator with it.

"I've already asked the instructor about making my own parallels - not a problem."

Think about making some large ones. They can be very, very handy.

"If you have plans for a work stop I'd like to see them."

All you need to do is look at a few in tool catalogs or see them in person. Then just copy them or design them to how you prefer they should be made. :>)

"Most of the stuff about the horizontal mill... Well, I could understand most of the terminology, but I couldn't catch it all."

Ask them directly in the newsgroup or find someone you can e-mail that you suspect / knows what they are doing and is good at explaining their thoughts.

"From what I understand though, horizontal mills aren't all that common anymore anyway. Am I right?"

IMO manual horizontal mills are not that popular but often still have their place. CNC horizontals are *very* popular for damn good reason. :>)

Besides what has already been mentioned in this thread, why ? LOL :>)

"We have a few skills we have to get on them anyway. I can see how other people wanted to jump in on that one because, hey, when I know about something I like to talk about it too. :)"

Then do it !!!

Just a few of my observations over I think 5 or 6 years of posting here:

You might want to make sure before you do that your prepared to take the heat and / or watch the bad vibes go down as the fighting starts. At times the bad vibes will carry from thread to thread and the level of hate will know no limits.

"Well... This week in class I'll be working with the rotary table. I'll be starting with a 6" round piece of aluminum,

1" thick. On one side I have to make 6 flats around the outside, and on the other 8 flats, with a 1/8" thickness of the original 6" dimension between the two. On both sides I'll have to drill equally spaces holes. Am I making sense here?"

You doing what I would call indexing with a rotary table. I have a lot of stuff I would like to convey to you about rotary tables. As you start to use them, and if your still interested, I will have more to say. :>)

"Thanks again for wanting to help out."

Thanks for appreciating the effort :>) Along the way I'm sure I will learn plenty from / about you as well.

jon

It's one of those things where it's tough to have too many. Commonly available are sets from 1/2" thru 1-5/8" in 1/8" increments. I have 3 sets like that which were purchased at a very good price and then match ground. Out of the box they vary too much. I have others that were made or acquired along with other tools, some are I-beam style that give a wide surface, and they look cool. Also some made from square tubing. I tend to keep several 1/8" thick by 6" aluminum blanks handy for the odd size needed when the "standard" ones don't do the job. You might consider cutting a step along one edge of your parallels so that during use the step is placed against the jaws. That eliminates the sharp corner that catches chips easily and leaves some space for a sharp or slightly burred part edge. If you harden your parallels, don't make them too hard, you *will* drill into them sooner or later. Or someone else will.

michael

Sure, hit me with the example :)

We have a few commercial boring heads around the shop, and I've seen how they work. I think the point of making ours was just to get a few of our skills checked off, and to have a little tool we could use if we want/need to.

I have enough to absorb right now, with working ahead in math and reading about metallurgy. Soon I'll be starting the lathe section in the textbook, and there's a lot of questions to work on with that. Then I've got a couple more presentations coming up in communications class. :P

I've met a couple of machinists that would take the time to explain things to me about machining even when I was just deburring. I hope I get to work with more like them.

I don't much enjoy having to ask someone else if I can use their tools, and wasting time digging through the shop to find something - argh. But I have absolutely no problem letting someone else use one of my tools as long as it finds its way back to my tool box when they're done with it.

Cool, I'll look into making one of these. It would be handy to have.

When I get on the horizontal mill I'll worry about learning more about it. :) I've got enough on my plate right now.

Lol, just like real life, then. Not everyone gets along. I guess it's just an unfortunate fact of life. You can learn something from everyone if you keep your ears (err, eyes in this case) open. You just have to learn to ignore the crap.

Well, I guess I'll be starting with that today. I'll let you know how it goes, and when I get the bare basics down you can pass on some of your stuff to me. :)

chem

Ahh, cool idea about the step - I hadn't thought of that. But "slightly burred part edge"? Naw, I used to be a deburrer... My parts don't have burred edges! (Yes, I realize that it only takes a tiny burr to throw off a measurement, and I know that when I get out into the real world I'm not going to have time to deburr all of my parts before I put them in the vice. I'm just being a smartass) And yeah, I've seen some parallels around the shop with holes drilled through them :P

chem

michael wrote:

I should have been more clear. For instance, when squaring and having a burr thrown off 1 edge......but the key is the elinination of the sharp internal corner from the parallel and jaw.

michael

Ahh, ok. Understood. :) How big should the step be? 1/8"? I guess it's probably just personal preference.

chem

michael wrote:

thrown off 1

thrown off 1

the parallel

Depending on thickness of parallel, whatever suits your fancy. Keep in mind that you will need to drill/bore holes very near part edge and may wish to turn them around so relief is away from the jaw, leaving clearance for your cutting tool to go through unmolested. I have not done this with my hardened parallels other than a couple pairs, wish I had. Do it with aluminum ones usually. Most of the time I stick a shorter parallel next to the jaws, same effect.

enjoy

michael

"Well, my instructors were both machining for a living for a long time before they started teaching this course, so they have a pretty good idea of what's useful for us I guess."

I'll have more questions about your instructors after you have more of your time invested in this machining program. Also, after you have had awhile to get to know others in this newsgroup and have kicked around some of their ideas.

"Sure, hit me with the example :)"

It's very common to do secondary operations like 5 axis drilling, reaming and very limited milling on a manual knee mill with a tilting rotary table because many shops either don't have a 5 axis CNC or don't want to tie an extremely expensive machine up.It especially common to see this in many aerospace shops that also do sheet metal fabrication.

Can you see where this would make sense ?

"I think the point of making ours was just to get a few of our skills checked off, and to have a little tool we could use if we want/need to."

Okay, but do you think that when you make a shop tool in class that it should not only build your machining skills but also be a shop tool that can be practical to use when you go to work in a machine shop ? If the shop tool takes too long to setup, in what I like to call the real world of the small machining job shop, is this a good shop tool to make if you have a choice in the matter ? :>)

You didn't think I was going to let you off the hook that easy did you ? LOL

:>)

"I have enough to absorb right now, with working ahead in math and reading about metallurgy. Soon I'll be starting the lathe section in the textbook, and there's a lot of questions to work on with that."

Yes, understood. I'm trying very hard to not overwhelm you. Let me know if it's too much.

"Then I've got a couple more presentations coming up in communications class. :P"

You certainly don't want my opinion on what I think of your "communications class" and how I would approach it. :>)

"I've met a couple of machinists that would take the time to explain things to me about machining even when I was just deburring. I hope I get to work with more like them."

A couple of machinists in this newsgroup (not including myself, here) have already shown a willingness to spend time pointing out things that they feel are very helpful. Some of these posters are people I have a great deal of respect for and who, because of experience, are much better machinists than I am. I do, however, have other technical skills that I use to, shall we say, even up the odds to keep their egos in check. ;>)

"I don't much enjoy having to ask someone else if I can use their tools, and wasting time digging through the shop to find something - argh."

Hmmm you and I might think alike here. Wait till you see what it's like "wasting time digging through the shop to find something" when the pressure is really on. Your "argh" might very well become something else more along the expletive lines and you might very well forget all about a recent hangover. :>)

"Cool, I'll look into making one of these. It would be handy to have."

When your ready ask and I will give you more details... if you haven't figured it out on your own by then / already. ;>)

"When I get on the horizontal mill I'll worry about learning more about it. :) I've got enough on my plate right now."

I hear ya ! See what I wrote above.

"Lol, just like real life, then. Not everyone gets along. I guess it's just an unfortunate fact of life. You can learn something from everyone if you keep your ears (err, eyes in this case) open. You just have to learn to ignore the crap."

IMO, the advice Bottlebob gave you is most excellent. Give some thought to following it, if you have not already reached your own conclusion.

jon

jon,

For the life of me I cant figure out what also doing sheetmetal would have to do with this.

Nope.................................

...............BUT.....................

I *WILL* venture a guess :

You somehow accidently pasted an extra line in there by mistake ???

Worked at several aerospace shops that also do sheet metal fabrication recently, have you ???

One of the oldest aerospace job shops in Phoenix does a ton of work like this.

No mistake.

How long is recently ?

jon

Maybe you misunderstood.

The sheet metal department does the sheat metal work for the weldments. Lots of Inconel rings welded to whatever.

If you want the companies name you can e-mail me and I will give you the person to talk with who is head of the manual department and he will backup what I'm saying. Anyone who knows the Phoenix job shop market should have no trouble figuring out what shop I mean, either.

jon

Hmm free clue ???

Sheet metal maybe ???

Remember, no email jon.

Be careful....... ( A clue for Gary )

I got twenty bucks says he already knows where you work.

Bet he even has photographs.

So now "many aerospace shops that also do sheet metal fabrication" has turned into a single shop in Phoenix ???

Just an example that I'm willing to give that can be easily confirmed. ;>)

Here's "a clue" on why I gave this example... they are Canadian owned.

How does the hook taste in the bait you swallowed, "Steve" ?

jon

You get that hook out of your mouth yet, "Steve" ?

LOL

jon

Clues, clues.

Everywhere you look there are clues.

That games not so fun when the game is played on "Steve" or Sam.

LOL

It's just a Cheap Trick !

www.cheaptrickcom

jon

What does Canadian ownership have anything to do with???