"hobbyist" mine skip load in haulage shaft

Hello all

Already got a challenge I'm looking at.

Done webpage showing what I am looking at and conjecturing solutions

"Skip load - Condurrow mine"

More background on the mine

"Condurrow mine"

- has pictures giving general impression of the environment.

I'm trying to broaden the input to this endeavour by posting to RCM.

I'm looking to rope to operate mechanisms because of its lightness and softness re. being used in a constricted environment with people around.

On a basic practical level

• keep the ropes as short as possible

• preferably have them hang down the shaft "naturally" as the "parked" position - not coiling on the floor if can be avoided

I'm visualising capstans/windlasses for the two operations

• open and close the "gates" to the ore bin

• raise and lower the tip of the chute which rotates-out over the (ore-)skip

There would always be two people there, so one can crank and the other can tail the rope. Particularly with the "gate" - let go of the tail of the rope and the "gates" drop in gravity and cut off the flow out of the ore-bin. That you really want...

(obvious point - no "stopper knot" or anything in the rope - if it's released it goes, with nothing to catch on anything)

The tip of the chute - you would want it to "fault" to "up" but I cannot see how to do that readily - however so long as the "gates" fault to "closed" you only stand to lose a few kg of ore down the shaft "in-extremis" - a "nothing".

Any thoughts?

Rich Smith

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Not too sure I understand the problem or your questions. I have several manual rope/chain lifts around the house and these are my observations on them.

Braided cotton rope is very easy on the hands. My second choice is braided polyester. The cotton rope that operates my chimney cleaning brush lasts for many years outdoors. My hands are hard from handling firewood etc but the skin dries and cracks in winter.

Given the choice I lift loads up to 3000# above head level with a chainfall, below it with a lever chain hoist. I just finished stacking logs that pegged my 1000KG crane scale at one end. The 1.5 ton lever hoist had no trouble raising them to put timbers underneath.

Winch handles can snap back really hard if your hand slips unless they have a ratchet, which can become a wear and maintenance issue. The ratchet doesn't protect you while lowering the load. The person tailing the rope should be warned not to let it fall under foot where it could grab an ankle. Two boat trailer winches raise my gantry track to the tops of their supporting tripods, where I chain them as the winches are rated only 1200#.

A block and tackle isn't bad with cotton or braided synthetic rope, hard on the hands with twisted nylon or polypropylene. I like a cam-type jam cleat for backup above the tie-off cleat, so I don't have to maintain tension while securing the rope to the cleat. One raises and lowers the TV antenna, another stores heavy and awkward 10' hoisting tripods, a third holds up the outer end of a hinged extension to the deck roof.

make several crossover passes before securing the final loop so slippery rope will give warning when it's starting to slip after I've undone the securing loop with my fingers.

For period authenticity you might look for a Weston differential chain hoist.

loose side of the haul chain bounces around and should be guided onto the pulley. That applies to chain falls too, but they just jam instead of dropping the load.

They have the valuable curiosity factor that their method of operation may not be evident to visitors who see them from a distance.

This may not apply to you, but my chimney rain cap acts like an inverted pendulum with an extension below the pivot for the operating cord. Its weight holds it either open or closed and a brief tug on the cord sets it in motion toward the other direction.

I don't understand the ore chute enough to suggest a fail-safe that closes it. At the Titanic inquest there was some discussion of the difficulty of making coal chute doors close automatically because the debris jams them. The watertight bulkheads between compartments had a fairly complex mechanism to allow them to close either on command or automatically during flooding without falling too fast onto someone passing through.

There is so much you cover here, with what you have written. If I picked any one thing it would distract from all others and give a false impression of priority. I am amazed how many things you have managed to cover. I recommend to anyone landing on this thread trying to work out what it's about to read Jim's response in full and consider it for how it could guide you with in your applications.

"Jim Wilkins" snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com writes: ...

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Here's a source:

It omits synthetic rope. My preference is for braided polyester, or climbing rope, because sunlight and water negatively affect nylon. Static rope has low stretch, dynamic rope has more stretch to cushion falls. Arborist "bull" rope is good too. Marine rope would be great if it wasn't so overpriced. I rarely have access to fishermans' suppliers, only recreational boaters'. My sister lives near a harbor but I visit mostly on holidays like today when everything is closed.

Anchored to wooden timber pitwork - need to very much limit strength so "in-extremis" a mishap cannot have the ropes pulling down the pitwork. Make the ropes used of deliberately limited strength. So in-extremis the rope breaks. Lower strength material rope, of smaller size - and not a braid, which is stronger.

Another reason to use windlasses/capstans - so can use a rope so small you could only lift a few kg with it by hand - but has a breaking strength of say half-a-tonne for 6mm (1/4inch) "cheap" cut-film polypropylene 3-strand laid rope. Small rope dia. works for you with a small neat windlass.

Any braid is going to send the strength way up.

Another objection to braids in this application - cannot see inside a braid to inspect condition. Rope for something like rock-climbing used carefully - yes braid. "Harsh" use on construction sites or in mines - ability to twist open the lay of a 3-strand rope and inspect condition if/when/where attention is so drawn - is so valuable. "Beats" a lot of "higher-level" arguments.

Anchored to wooden timber pitwork - need to very much limit strength so "in-extremis" a mishap cannot have the ropes pulling down the pitwork. Make the ropes used of deliberately limited strength. So in-extremis the rope breaks. Lower strength material rope, of smaller size - and not a braid, which is stronger.

Another reason to use windlasses/capstans - so can use a rope so small you could only lift a few kg with it by hand - but has a breaking strength of say half-a-tonne for 6mm (1/4inch) "cheap" cut-film polypropylene 3-strand laid rope. Small rope dia. works for you with a small neat windlass.

Any braid is going to send the strength way up.

Another objection to braids in this application - cannot see inside a braid to inspect condition. Rope for something like rock-climbing used carefully - yes braid. "Harsh" use on construction sites or in mines - ability to twist open the lay of a 3-strand rope and inspect condition if/when/where attention is so drawn - is so valuable. "Beats" a lot of "higher-level" arguments.

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This looks and handles like traditional rope but is made from cut polypropylene film:

The thought I put into this was appreciated by the club when I went to the mine. It's started some discussions going. So that's good. Helped the guy continuing repair of the compressed air pipe down on the tramming level yesterday. Rich S

The thought I put into this was appreciated by the club when I went to the mine. It's started some discussions going. So that's good. Helped the guy continuing repair of the compressed air pipe down on the tramming level yesterday. Rich S

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It's good you could help. Wanting to preserve history plus having the skills to do it aren't that common. This is a local example by people whose judgment and ability didn't measure up to their intentions.

The natives of North America never left the Stone Age though Central and South America did, to a Bronze Age. they can be completely like us if they choose to, as can Pacific Islanders, and I suspect we could have stayed primitive except for some unknown trigger.

I have some experience with rigging, none with mining. The only useful things in the ground here are sand, gravel and granite. I do have a rock drill (free, needed repair) and wedges and shims for splitting rock.

Richard Smith snipped-for-privacy@void.com wrote: ...

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Is this the mine referred to at

,with photos as at ,apparently called Great Condurrow Mine ? The pictures show a headframe, but whether it has cables isn't clear from pictures, or which shaft the headframe serves. Also the description mentions King Edward Mine near Troon -- is that a few km west of Great Condurrow Mine ?

Do you have a headframe in working order, more or less, to raise and lower the skip, and what you want to do with ropes is operate skip gates, or tip trucks, etc? Or is it not working / not present, and you want to use ropes to raise small loads?

Richard Smith snipped-for-privacy@void.com wrote: ...

...

...

Is this the mine referred to at

,with photos as at ,apparently called Great Condurrow Mine ? The pictures show a headframe, but whether it has cables isn't clear from pictures, or which shaft the headframe serves. Also the description mentions King Edward Mine near Troon -- is that a few km west of Great Condurrow Mine ?

Do you have a headframe in working order, more or less, to raise and lower the skip, and what you want to do with ropes is operate skip gates, or tip trucks, etc? Or is it not working / not present, and you want to use ropes to raise small loads?

----------------------------------------- This old photo shows the headframe cable and connects the multiple names:

Might be ;-)

The headframe is complete, all is functional including the winder (electrically powered), etc.

The "haulage shaft" (correct term? - there's "pumping shafts" and "man-engine shafts" (no there were no women working as miners then) and shafts with the whim engine (rotative engine) for hauling ore out of the mine) has the cables and skip(s).

This mine has a shaft for person access down ladders.

King Edward Mine is less than a kilometre away. It flooded in the 1920's when the neighbouring Grenville mines closed. They were naughty with their exploration tunnels going beyond their sett and broke into King Edward workings - which the water in King Edward mine found a very agreeable flow direction and the Grenville mines had to pump King Edward mine for free (and the Judge told them exactly the same seeing as they had intruded into K.E. sett).

Nothing of King Edward mine was above the water table, so Camborne School of Mines had to abandon it as their teaching mine and move to Condurrow - which at the top of the hill has several levels above the water table.

The ropes are for operating the parts of the chute and mechanism when transfering from the ore bin to the skip.

Tip of chute into place above skip; open "gate" and ore flows; close "gate" when skip is nearly full; lift tip of chote up and out of way. Then signal for skip to be raised.

King Edward mine - is flooded to near the surface so "abandoned" - but the workings are preserved - can process tin ore - recentlyt managed to produce a few kg. of tin metal mined in Cornwall to make a presentation medals for the "G7" summit in Carbis Bay.

King Edward has a high-pressure horizontal engine - on an integral frame.

It was unlikely anyone would make beam-engine whim engines again - so Camborne School of Mines went with the times.

I think that was non-condensing - so was no more efficient than a Cornish beam engine at 50psi (just over 3 Bar). All was not equal when it came to Cornish (cycle) beam engines...

But emphasising - this was King Edward mine.

The "haulage shaft" (correct term? - there's "pumping shafts" and "man-engine shafts" (no there were no women working as miners then) and shafts with the whim engine (rotative engine) for hauling ore out of the mine) has the cables and skip(s).

This mine has a shaft for person access down ladders.

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I suspect it was a strong incentive to arrive at work relatively sober.

There were "man engines" around here, yes.

Skip and guide design:

Why I come here - you can "strike gold" on any topic :-)

Wonderfully "aspergic" - come back with a 246 pages of information-packed PDF on skips and haulage shafts for skips ! You've help me line up to get teased for years to come :-)

For "our" teeny little hobby mine...

Best wishes on this joyful day.

PS currently internationally working mining engineer - whose family has a small commercial mine here - is back in Cornwwall for a break and might be coming by this cafe I am in shortly...

Why I come here - you can "strike gold" on any topic :-)

Wonderfully "aspergic" - come back with a 246 pages of information-packed PDF on skips and haulage shafts for skips ! You've help me line up to get teased for years to come :-)

For "our" teeny little hobby mine...

Best wishes on this joyful day.

PS currently internationally working mining engineer - whose family has a small commercial mine here - is back in Cornwwall for a break and might be coming by this cafe I am in shortly...

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I was looking for older mining technology, rope operated skips and ore chutes etc. There's a fair amount of old-time industrial reconstruction around here, except for mines.

's where as a scientifically interested kid I watched the bloomery process for making wrought iron without being able to melt it.

This has been an interesting engineering look at a field where the simplest things are difficult, sort of like the Infantry. I always kept in mind that everything I designed for the military had to be operable with gloves on. I spent December 1972 at a snow covered mountaintop communications relay station near Fulda. To minimize the IR signature there was (officially) very little heat in the tents and none in the equipment vans.

The group of mostly warm-climate Latinos I was attached to had the regulation 5 gallon jerry can for the tent stove plainly perched on a tarp-covered fuel tank trailer that actually kept the stove red hot all night. Being from New Hampshire, warm enough for them was toasty for me. Typing on the Teletypes was very slow, though. The operators kept the doors open to dissipate the hashish smell.

Jim - I've been in Fulda. I had a ladyfriend and friends there.

In the brief time I did it, making equipment for the divers was likewise - assume very limited to zero visibility, currents - and gloves on. Makign sure anythign I made would work in "real" conditions.

Still smiling this next morning coming back with a 246-page document on mine skips - for our teeny little winding arrangement :-)

Saugus iron works - not melt...

The Abbeydale Industrial Hamlet is near where I grew up - Sheffield, England. First steel where the process is to melt it - "crucible steel".

The Abbeydale Industrial Hamlet is near where I grew up - Sheffield, England. First steel where the process is to melt it - "crucible steel".

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The accounts I've read of Huntsman didn't describe how he achieved temperatures of 1500-1600C. Knowing the carbon content of a steel sample gives the minimum temperature needed to melt it.