"hobbyist" mine skip load in haulage shaft

It starts off well, discussing the big picture, and that is fine - at least the "landscape" being considered is recognisable. Then with more recent events things start to wobble. The arguments are propped-up with untruths, half-truths and fantasies - we suspect. It is easier to comment on things further back where there is the benefit of hindsight. "The Guardian" has "fallen by the wayside" along with all other formal media outlets. Jarring retransmissions of narrow "monomessage" propaganda around truths so certain that that explains the absence of nuance - noticeably irreconcilable with what we can see and sense of events unfolding.

Geez I am feeling I am walking on unstable ground and quicksands trying to go this far.

Time to go make another tea. Best wishes

Reply to
Richard Smith
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It starts off well, discussing the big picture, and that is fine - at least the "landscape" being considered is recognisable. Then with more recent events things start to wobble. The arguments are propped-up with untruths, half-truths and fantasies - we suspect. It is easier to comment on things further back where there is the benefit of hindsight.

---------------------- I picked the article for its British viewpoint. Sometime your side sees us more objectively than we want to.

You gave a fair appraisal, it's common to see a set of observations amplified beyond what they justify, that's what Chomsky did in his lecture. I admit to composing and then deleting a lot myself. I try to separate the facts from the opinions though a clever writer can obscure the difference.

Being retired and something of a hermit I'm no longer well enough connected to comment seriously on the direction of our society. The most recent group I listened to was flea market vendors, mostly older folk who have backed out of the rat race to live a more independent gypsy lifestyle. Some are quite well educated and they tend to be highly opinionated in diverse ways. A portion are craftsmen peddling their wares and perhaps living off-grid, which I've been exploring from the alternate energy perspective since the

1970's.

At night classes and school open house functions I've tried to get students talking about their plans and view of society. In general they were upbeat and optimistic, perhaps because the open-house participants were a self-selected group of the most ambitious and outgoing.

The local TV channel has been running short pieces about the homeless. It's meant to raise sympathy but to me they come across as antisocial, intentionally unemployed whiners. I can think of several people who were/are on the verge of unemployment for their hostile, negative and self-destructive attitudes. They aren't "underprivileged", their problems are their own demons, but politicians won't lure their votes by saying that.

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

It is externally observed about Britain "The large number of unskilled 'managers'" That someone outside seeing a second-by-second reality here. Inured by years and decades of it, a friend still chortled when I portrayed an annoyance she related as being "a nothing" because it was "a laryngial reflex action". As in - there you are making the Company function, hooked into the vertical revenue-earning structure of the business

(there are "high-flyers" who strike the deals but rely on a raft of support making everything easy and pre-organised for them so they can walk in and concentrate solely on the arrangement which brings money into the Company and there are those who are not controlling the top end but are diligently "taking on-board" the needs of the topmost making everything happen as if it just does in return for a modest pouring of money to them)

with these horizontal stratems of "managers" whose job should be keeping the stationery cupboard stocked, booking-in the central-heating service company, etc. - who have transmuted into "managers" who pick into the revenue-generating activity.

But the big picture is - the economy is supporting some double-figure percent of people who seem to do nothing but these reflex actions without comprehension. Do these things and you are "managerial material" in Britain and you will be recognised, recruited and given jobs where you force people doing any actual doing to justify every little day-to-day thing - "taken on board" by those who self-validate as being a crucial.

Variants of the "How many managers does it take to change a lightbulb?" joke has got to extreme levels of sarcasm in response to the situation.

As I see it...

I am skeptical a successful enduring economy can come from this.

Those who have benefitted from talented success do identify similar. That the path they followed is not open now, and it would not be possible to replace a significant person in a Company because "the managers" would control it - with significant backing og the Law - "equal opportunities legislation and practice" - hence being able to insert one of their own.

Etc.

Rich S

----------------------------------- I attribute the rise of human drones to taxing the production of machines to artificially employ unproductive people. For government there is a direct advantage to the economy, for politicians a larger voting base, in private enterprise it's less clear. Perhaps if a manager's value and salary is tied to the number of people they manage the incentive is to add more up to a barely justifiable limit. They also serve as targets for blame, like the Specialist (Corporal) who took the fall for the Abu Ghraib scandal.

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There was a running joke in the Army that the Specialist who typed orders in the Pentagon actually ran everything because the officers never checked what he wrote.

Another is about what a Lieutenant should do when ordered to put up a flagpole. The correct answer is to say "Sergeant, erect a flagpole here" and then stay out of his way. I read the officer's instructions on setting up a Bailey bridge which support that. There's nothing on how to actually perform the work. In my case the orders were "It's broke, go fix it".

My Army position of being highly skilled but commanding no one didn't fit well into their structure and the rank and pay grade later reverted to Sergeant. It's difficult to weigh the value of engineers and scientists who work alone against that of a manager of many who gives direction and resolves conflicts but personally produces nothing. Ben Rich's memoir of directing the Lockheed Skunk Works mentions that dilemma.

In R&D an effective strategy is to partition the work into one-man units if possible, Mitre and Segway did that. That way they can cooperate between their fields without stepping on each other's toes within their own. I've read that British wartime research was handled that way, by very small groups. I expanded my role to packaging and programming only if no one else was available for them.

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

Variants of the "How many managers does it take to change a lightbulb?" joke has got to extreme levels of sarcasm in response to the situation.

------------------------- They can't, that's a Union job.

I've lived the parallel question of how many actors it takes to accomplish -anything- useful. Their salvation was the tech crew which possibly could recreate civilization from scratch.

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

My impression is: you will not find any "British opinion" in any "mainstream media".

How you would find out our opinion - not going to be easy...

We have to get on day-by-day with a complex impression guiding our trajectory, without time and energy to as much as start to describe what it is we see.

Yet there is to a significant extent shared impressions it seems.

Reply to
Richard Smith

The main driver? A big base of voters totally reliant on the Government for its existence, perceiving themselves as "upwardly mobile".

Absurdities here:

  • during the "Covid19" crisis there was no need for these people to go to work - so they invented "the furlough scheme" - the Government paid for them to stay at home - at the time I did not see that it was going to be the "no real role" Conservative-party voters where the majority beneficiary of this largesse - as everyone "still" in the working group, including me, were 100% unbrokenly needed at work.

  • a "low-skilled manager" relying on a domestic help who in their own country is a Doctor, a vetinarian, etc.

The Government had to make jobs for its voters, and being a "right-wing" Government driving the change they invented "the culture of the manager" - which created this demographic raft in our society.

How it impacts me - if I go for a job these will be the people on the interview panel. "How many angels fit on the head of a pin?" would be a remarkably recognisable question because at least you can quantify the pin. Many questions - neither the situation nor what they ask you to address are recognisable in the parallel universe of wherever their heads are at. Background explanation - "equal opportunites legislation" means the whole recruitment process has to be handled by "managers" - and, well, cue every fantasy and have no relation to the point.

Reply to
Richard Smith

Absurdities here:

  • during the "Covid19" crisis there was no need for these people to go to work - so they invented "the furlough scheme" - the Government paid for them to stay at home - at the time I did not see that it was going to be the "no real role" Conservative-party voters where the majority beneficiary of this largesse - as everyone "still" in the working group, including me, were 100% unbrokenly needed at work.

  • a "low-skilled manager" relying on a domestic help who in their own country is a Doctor, a vetinarian, etc.

The Government had to make jobs for its voters, and being a "right-wing" Government driving the change they invented "the culture of the manager" - which created this demographic raft in our society.

------------------------------- In the US both parties participate, the Right absorbs the excess labor capacity above consumption with defense and space work and the Left with expanding the management of social and regulatory programs. Both decry the half they don't control as unnecessary waste. The distinction is somewhat blurred by competition to boost Federal spending in each legislators' home district.

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

My impression is: you will not find any "British opinion" in any "mainstream media".

--------------------------------------

Not specifically British, I don't read other languages well enough for sophisticated concepts and don't trust automated translations to catch subtle context-dependent shades of connotation, sometimes the translation is just ludicrous. The subtitled foreign TV shows here are police dramas with limited vocabulary.

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common phrase from the detectives is "keine Ahnung", "I haven't a clue".

For instance I wouldn't understand the true meaning of Realpolitik without knowing the history of Otto von Bismarck. He provoked France into declaring a war they would lose by shading the wording of a telegram such that they could take its translation as an insult. We may have mistranslated an ambiguous Japanese term concerning their possible surrender as an absolute denial, and thus nuked them. I took it as similar to the difference between "think little of" and "think nothing of" something, which are opposites.

An example I found in an English-language Russian magazine was a Russian's comment of "Horses, Men!" over the Hot Line between Washington and Moscow that puzzled US translators until someone realized it was a reference to the disorder of battle from Lermontov's famous poem "Borodino".

Oriental translations can make no sense or mean other than intended. I saw one expressing existential despair; "Parts that are exhausted of their lives are to be replaced."

National leaders usually speak their native language at international events and let professional translators word them correctly in other languages, even if they speak it. JFK was ridiculed for a statement that came out like "I am a Danish!" (breakfast pastry). "Berliner" is the adjective for a resident, "ein Berliner" is a jelly doughnut. Both versions are used here, but would you say "I am a British"?

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

The perils of mistranslation - you benefit from experience and travel...

Reply to
Richard Smith

The perils of mistranslation - you benefit from experience and travel...

----------------------

The applicable phrase is good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment. I hope I didn't accidentally insult anyone too badly. A few German beers increased the quantity of my foreign speech but did nothing for its quality. That applies in English too.

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

:-)

The good stuff. When you sign-out of the day and go to a parallel universe.

I have also lived in "ciderland" - places where they make cider (in Britain "cider" is fermented juice of cider apples). That is very "parallel reality". As I explained to a local who is/was a prodigeous cider-drinker, it's like a train ticket. You buy a train ticket in Crewkerne to go to Axminster, get on the train and next time the doors open you are in Axminster. Likewise "loopy-juice" - you arrive in ciderland - good place to be back to. I worked in a foundry, and within minutes of leaving work you were mixing with holidaymakers who had come from all over Europe to be there. Calling in at the pub (public house) and drinking "Thatcher's Dry" - a "real" natural cider - after a day in the foundry.

By the way - 80% of the burners in all the world for powerstations running on residual oil (it's got all the impurities concentrated in it) came from that foundry. I speculated that if the apple harvest failed the world's oil-fired powerstations would come to a stop.

Reply to
Richard Smith

I worked in a foundry, and within minutes of leaving work you were mixing with holidaymakers who had come from all over Europe to be there. Calling in at the pub (public house) and drinking "Thatcher's Dry" - a "real" natural cider - after a day in the foundry.

------------------------

In Germany the occupants of the room I was assigned to in Heidelberg were accomplished pub crawlers, in a university town that stayed open to party until 3AM. The rest of the country closed at 6PM. If I had any good stories I've forgotten them.

One year I was assigned to take three deserving men on a trivial routine mission to Munich and be sure they visit the Oktoberfest. I found four girls across from empty seats and joined them. The only one who spoke some English insisted on practicing it on me and the rest sat glumly and silently staring at each other, unable to communicate. Some days you can't win no matter what.

She wondered what an American might think of the highly organized way they celebrated. When the music began they all linked arms and swayed in perfect unison to it, as regimented as soldiers. They also synchronize clapping in applause, though I heard more randomness on the last broadcast of a Vienna concert. They clearly have a sense of tribal unity that we Americans lack, or superficially apply to the Old Country of ancestors. Mine can only be described as assorted Northern European. We think the first Wilkins who arrived in Jamestown VA in 1619 was Welsh.

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

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