Honda Headscratching

Gunner -- ignore the naysayers.

Clearly you understand that a piece of equipment that old that can be brought back to life is a survivor, and will last forever.

(particularly if you restore those cam bearings).

Split aluminum bronze bushings (I like ampco18 , got a set of swingarm bushings in my '90 FLHTCU made from it ...) . Cut the OD a thou or two tight in the reamed-round cam bearing so they won't spin - or tab 'em like conrod big end bearings . Might have to bolt the caps up with split shells in place and do a light line-ream , just to make sure they're round and reasonably lined up . Your off-idle miss/breaking up may be due to the cam bushings - when it spools up , the loading on the lobes changes , maybe holding an intake valve open ? For that matter ,the change in loading might throw timing and dwell off enough to do that too . Have fun ! I'm still not finished with the taper attachment , which I need so I can make the mandrel and the laps , so that I can recondition the roller bearing races on the crankshaft and the tranny main shaft . So much fun to have , so little time to have it in !

The fuel was 1 day old. But thanks

No naysaying here. Just asking about this particular bike and trying to point him to where he can get more help than we can give.

Wayne D.

Why isnt it any good for off road use? The 350 thumper wont putter around in the desert?

My impetus is I have it. It almost runs, its all there, so why not?

Shrug

Got another bike of similar CC that will haul my 215lb corpus around, that I can stick a rifle scabbard on that you will sell me really cheap, or swap for? Dirt roads and off road in the desert, lots of hills.

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

Indeed. I recall all the foofoorah when I got the the 1991 E350 Ford van..the one that had been parked for 10 yrs.

Runs fine, took some work, but nothing unexpected, radiator, hoses etc.

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

Looking at the photos of the head, I think I can simply make a round bearing to fit a fresh line bore, with a pin to keep them from spinning and oil galleys drilled in the right place. Slip the round bearing over the camshaft, line the bearings up with the pins, and clamp everything down I dont think I need to split them at all.

I didnt pull the head yet, still doing honey do's. Thought Id get called to work today, but the phone still hasnt rung yet. Maybe tommorow

There is indeed enough play to keep valves from opening, particularly with .003 tapet clearences

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

He might have thought it was the 350 twin? By even the standards of the

Jon

Indeed , I was thinking "twin" , but it's a single , and you're absolutely right . Less chance of screwin' it up with a non-split bush . Mandrel time ... I'm finally gettin' motivated again , spending some time out in the shed evenings again . Might even finish one of my "started-to's" . Like that damn taper attachment , ain't got that much left to finish it .

I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch wrote on Mon, 05 Jan 2009 18:28:42 -0800 in rec.crafts.metalworking :

We're guys. Like we need more of a reason?

Le Shrug. I figure civil engineering was developed as a way to allow grown men to dig holes, and get muddy. "We're umm, ah ... digging a basement, yeah. We're digging a basement. Or a foundation. Yeah, a foundation. Gonna make a bridge." Why are you going to make a bridge? "Well, duh - so we have someplace to bungy jump!"

-- pyotr filipivich We will drink no whiskey before its nine. It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

As I remember it we bored out the head and pressed in plain bearings with a notch filed in one side. After pressing we drilled a hole down the notched side and pinned it. If you try to drill a hole half in the bronze bush and half in the aluminum head it won't work - the aluminum is softer then the bronze so the drill walks into the aluminum. The notch lets the drill cut mostly the aluminum.

I can't visualize the thing now, it was probably thirty years ago, but I don't remember any problems. Plain bushing in both sides. Cheers,

Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Gunner, your thinking like a Company Engineer with access to unlimited tools and free parts from the company store room - stop it! - you will be ruined for civilised company.....start thinking like the resourceful rat engineer we all know you are....

A few points, from this and previous postings...

have you checked there is fuel flow (ie, more than a leak) from the tank? - if its been sitting for years, God knows what sediment / muck is clogging the gauze filter at the bottom of the fuel taps. (or, indeed, the fuel line to the carb)

Have you checked the exhaust port, even visually - is it carboned up?

- ( you said it was blowing smoke anyway) have you checked the exhaust pipe and muffler, with an air line or a piece of stiff wire as a pull through - maybe something has crawled in there and died?

Finally - the ignition system. You say you got a 6v coil and condenser from an old truck - how old - must be eons, 6v systems went out in the

It comes down to carburetion or ignition - the ignition is the easiest to prove. If it passes, then look at the carby suggestions others have posted here.

And it will be a nice hooning around bike at the end of it - don't worry about the camshaft bearings for the moment, it will/should run reasonably even with stuffed ones. Spend big bucks when everything else is proved.

Hope this helps, all recollections from when I was a penniless bum and had to keep my bike gong.....

Andrew VK3BFA.

If degraded ignition is your problem -- and it could be -- the diagnosis is easy and free. You may be getting a low voltage spark impulse, which is enough to produce a spark when you test the plug in open air or running at low cylinder pressure with the throttle closed, but too weak to produce a spark at higher cylinder pressures which result when you open the throttle. To diagnose this problem, simply squeeze the plug gap down to half what is the spec and give her a run. If you can get higher RPM with the reduced plug gap, you have discovered your problem. At least one of them.

Most carb problems are actually ignition, according to a man who rebuild antique auto carbs. I find that to be true. Points have to operate in a small acceptable range of dwell and timing is critical, but older bikes must be retarded a bit to prevent modern fuel from pinging. Add that to worn advance unit and it won't run so well. You need to find the total advance spec and use an adjustable timing light to set it there, idle timing may then be way off, but that's how it is. The timing gear wobbles? That has to be fixed, and the advance shaft can't be allowed to wobble more than a few thousandths either. Take it apart and find out why.

On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 02:49:33 -0800 (PST), the infamous snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com scrawled the following:

Oh, Andrew! You had to go and use the "E" word, didn't you? That reminded me of this coagulation of engineer jokes:

--snip-- Comprehending Engineers-Take One

---------------------------------------------------- A pastor, a doctor and an engineer are waiting one morning behind a particularly slow group of golfers. They see the course marshal and ask why he isn't doing something to expedite play. "They're blind firefighters," says the marshal, "They lost their sight saving our clubhouse from a fire last year, so we let them have free access to the course anytime they want." After a moment's reflection, the group responds: Pastor: "That's so sad. I think I will say a special prayer for them tonight." Doctor: "I'm going to contact an ophthalmologist friend, and see if there's anything he can do for them." Engineer: "Why can't these guys play at night?"

------------------------------------------------------------------ Comprehending Engineers-Take Two

----------------------------------------------------- In a high school gym class, all the girls are lined up against one wall, and all the boys against the opposite wall. Every ten seconds, they walk toward each other exactly half the remaining distance between them. A mathematician, a physicist, and an engineer are asked, "When will the girls and boys meet?" Mathematician: "Never." Physicist: "In an infinite amount of time." Engineer: "Well... in about two minutes, they'll be close enough for all practical purposes."

------------------------------------------------------------------ Comprehending Engineers-Take Three

------------------------------------------------------ There was an engineer who had an exceptional gift for fixing all things mechanical. After serving his company loyally for over 30 years, he happily retired. Several years later his company contacted him regarding a seemingly impossible problem they were having. One of their multi-million dollar machines wasn't working and no one knew how to fix it. The engineer reluctantly took the challenge. He spent a day studying the huge machine. At the end of the day he marked a small "x" in chalk on a particular component of the machine and proudly stated, "Replace this part and the machine will work." The part was replaced and the machine worked perfectly once again. The company received a bill for $50,000 from the engineer. They demanded an itemized accounting of his charges. The engineer responded: One chalk mark ........ ..... ..... $1 Knowing where to put it ... $49,999

------------------------------------------------------------------ Comprehending Engineers-Take Four

----------------------------------------------------- Three engineers and three mathematicians are traveling by train to a conference. At the station, the three mathematicians each buy tickets and watch as the three engineers buy only a single ticket. "How are three people going to travel on only one ticket?" asks a mathematician. "Watch and see," replies an engineer. They all board the train. The mathematicians take their respective seats, but all three engineers cram into a restroom and close the door. Shortly after the train departs, the conductor comes around collecting tickets. He knocks on the restroom door and says, "Ticket, please." The door opens just a crack and a single arm emerges with a ticket in hand. The conductor takes it and moves on. The mathematicians see this and agree it is quite a clever idea. After the conference, the mathematicians decide to copy the engineers on the return trip and save some money. They buy a single ticket for the return trip, but are astonished to see that the engineers don't buy any ticket at all. "How are you going to travel without a ticket?" asks one perplexed mathematician. "Watch and see" is the answer. They board the train, the three mathematicians cram into one restroom and the three engineers cram into another one nearby. Shortly after the train departs, one of the engineers leaves his restroom and walks over to the restroom where the mathematicians are hiding. He knocks on the door and says, "Ticket, please."

------------------------------------------------------------------ Comprehending Engineers-Take Five

----------------------------------------------------- The Top 10 Things Engineering School didn't teach

1. There are at least 10 types of capacitors.
2. Theory tells you how a circuit works, not why it does not work.
3. Not everything works according to the specs in the databook.
4. Anything practical you learn will be obsolete before you use it, except the complex math, which you will never use.
5. Always try to fix the hardware with software.
6. Engineering is like having an 8 a.m. class and a late afternoon lab every day for the rest of your life.
7. Overtime pay? What overtime pay?
8. Managers, not engineers, rule the world.
9. If you like junk food, caffeine and all-nighters, go into software.
10. Dilbert is a documentary.

------------------------------------------------------------------ Comprehending Engineers-Take Six

--------------------------------------------------- Q: What is the difference between Mechanical Engineers and Civil Engineers? A: Mechanical Engineers build weapons, Civil Engineers build targets.

------------------------------------------------------------------ Comprehending Engineers-Take Seven

--------------------------------------------------- Two engineering students were walking across campus when one said,"Where did you get such a great bike?"

The second engineer replied, "Well, I was walking along yesterday minding my own business when a beautiful woman rode up on this bike. She threw the bike to the ground, took off all her clothes and said, 'Take what you want.'"

"The second engineer nodded approvingly, "Good choice; the clothes probably wouldn't have fit."

------------------------------------------------------------------ Comprehending Engineers-Take Eight

--------------------------------------------------- To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty. To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

------------------------------------------------------------------ Comprehending Engineers-Take Nine

--------------------------------------------------- Normal people ... believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet."

------------------------------------------------------------------ Comprehending Engineers-Take Ten

--------------------------------------------------- An architect, an artist and an engineer were discussing whether it was better to spend time with the wife or a mistress.

The architect said he enjoyed time with his wife, building a solid foundation for an enduring relationship.

The artist said he enjoyed time with his mistress, because of the passion and mystery he found there.

The engineer said, "I like both."

"Both?"

Engineer: "Yeah. If you have a wife and a mistress, they will each assume you are spending time with the other woman, and you can go to the lab and get some work done."

------------------------------------------------------------------ Comprehending Engineers-Take Eleven

--------------------------------------------------- An engineer was crossing a road one day when a frog called out to him and said, "If you kiss me, I'll turn into a beautiful princess".

He bent over, picked up the frog and put it in his pocket.

The frog spoke up again and said, "If you kiss me and turn me back into a beautiful princess, I will stay with you for one week."

The engineer took the frog out of his pocket, smiled at it and returned it to the pocket.

The frog then cried out, "If you kiss me and turn me back into a princess, I'll stay with you and do ANYTHING you want."

Again the engineer took the frog out, smiled at it and put it back into his pocket.

Finally, the frog asked, "What is the matter? I've told you I'm a beautiful princess, that I'll stay with you for a week and do anything you want. Why won't you kiss me?"

The engineer said, "Look I'm an engineer. I don't have time for a girlfriend, but a TALKING frog, now that's cool."

------------------------------------------------------------------ Comprehending Engineers-Take Twelve

--------------------------------------------------- Several engineers are standing around one day trying to decide what type of engineer must have designed the human body. (All right, for the purpose of the joke there is an assumption of some sort of higher being that actually designed the human body.....work with me people.)

The chemical engineer says "the human body was designed by a chemical engineer. Look how the body takes in nutrients and then turns them into energy and body parts just by re-organizing a few chemical bonds."

The electrical enginner says "the human body was clearly designed by an electrical engineer. Just observe how tiny electrical impulses cause the muscles to move, cause the person to feel, see and listen to all that is happening around them. And finally look how a few very tiny tiny electrical impulses can store a memory for a lifetime, and yet bring that information back at a moments notice. Clearly the work of a brillaint electrical engineer."

The mechanical engineer says "bahh! The human body was designed by a mechanical engineer. Notice how the muscles and the bones work to make the body move. Notice how the organs work to move the food and other nutrients around to the places where they are needed."

Finally the Civil engineer pipes up and says "you're all wrong. The human body was designed by a civil engineer. Who else would put a waste treatment plant right next to a recreational facility?"

--snip--

You must have missed the post where he said that the cam was loping around with a 1/8" hop to it, at the ignition points. The ignition timing is likely to suffer just a wee bit from that.

-- Books are the compasses and telescopes and sextants and charts which other men have prepared to help us navigate the dangerous seas of human life. --Jesse Lee Bennett

If you have an inductive timing light, it doesn't have to run off the same power as the engine.

Jon

LOL

Yep, cleaned the tank, pulled the petcock, cleaned the sediment bowl anhd filter, added a decent new inline filter and new hoses

No, havent done that. Its a good idea however. I do have a reasonable output of exhaust from the spark arrester. But I will check that.

I got a good used Motorcycle coil from a parts bike similar to mine. 6vt AC (ac magnito ignition) and a brand new condenser from the autoparts store. Puts out a decent blue spark now. Also a new NGK plug and NGK plug cap on the end of the spark plug wire.

The bike sits and idles well enough. It just turns to s*it when tweeking the throttle. I need to find another carby. I carefully cleaned this one, using mig wire on the small passages, lots and lots of compressed air and a soaking in Berrymans Chemtool carby cleaner. I replaced all the seals with brand new o-rings, and made sure the crush fit didnt close any of them off. The original seals being flat rubber disks with a hole in the middle between the various bits. Replaced idle jet seal as well. I really need to find another carby, even a loaner to test with. This one may be utterly stuffed. The odometer had 17,000 miles showing, which while not a lot...is significant.

Im sure this bike has two problems,...the carby..and the worn out cam journal (s).

The way Honda does it on most of thes bikes...the head has half of of the cam journal machined into it, a cradle the camshaft lays in...and there is a cover that goes on top of the head. It has ports to adjust the valves and so forth. The bottom of the cover has the upper half of the camshaft journal machined into it No journal "caps"...they are machind into the cover.

When I turn the engine, so all the valves are closed and the pressure is off of the tappets, I can move the end of the camshaft that carries the points cam a significant amount.Probably 1/8" of an inch...3mm? in the horizontal direction side to side, and a bit less up and down. This movemen is affecting the amount and time the points open and close. This also effecs if the valves open, how much, and when. Double overhead cam...two exhaust valves,, two intake valves, single cyllinder.

The bike starts hard, unless I use an oiler and spritz some raw gas into the carby, past the slide into the engine. Then it starts fine,

Ive played with the timing, with the engine running,and found the sweet spot where it idles fine, but it still wont do anything other than bog when I tweek the throttle. If I creep up on it..after about half throttle, the bike will suddenly speed up normally to high rpms. Normally Id think this was a carby issue...but watching the points cam shaft wallowing around like a drunken sailor..I think that at the higher rpms, the end of the cam shaft is now spinning fast enough to get some gyroscopic stability and enough oil is being pumped into the worn out journal to pile up in it and get a thick film around it which helps stabilize it when its spinning., and this now allows the cam to run fairly true..concentric and the points are opening closing in a consistant manner.

Ive ordered a proper carb seal kit from Ebay and when it arrives, Ill install it. But..the carby may simply be worn out, thought the slide appears smooth, and slides smoothly in the slide bore. Needle jet is in the proper clip setting according all the online sites devoted to this bike.its quite a popular bike for flat tracking, etc etc. Which makes finding cheap parts a bit more problematic...what the market will bear....

A fellow down south mentioned that he has a Mikuni 38mm carby..which is one of the ones easily adapted to this bike, but Ill have to install the proper jets and so forth.

The California bike boneyards want huge money for used parts, so unless I can find a head on Ebay...and know it too isnt worn out. and a carby..same concern...I have to work with what I have.

Chucle..if I was over engineering..Id have ordered a new head $485, a new head coverr $135, a new carby $350, and a new camshaft $215.

Or send in the head/cover to one of the bike racing shops for a line bore $150, and a new cam with needle bearings $350....

Instead ..Im probaly going to bolt the head and cover to an angle plate, and carefuly bore out the worn out journals to fit bronze bushings, clean up the camshaft if possible, or grind it clean, fit the bronze bushings to it and the bored journals and see if that fixes it. Having that camshaft bounching around inside of that aluminum journal cant be doing the journal any good..it can only get more and more hogged out and its likely to be doing the far side journal damage as well.

Boring this is going to be interesting..as the inside journal is significantly bigger in diameter than the outside one. Im pretty sure Honda didnt line bore them, but used a big milling cutter ...form tool.....and simply squeezed the head and cover together around the spinning form cutter.

Being bigger on the inside journal, im hoping that it took less damage/wear and I only have to bush the outside one. I can live with some slop on the inside..the outside carres the points cam

Thanks

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

Ill try that!

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

About '78 or so, Honda joined the real world and changed over to 12 volt system.

The cool thing about this bike, it has a seperate charging coil just to run the ignition. If the engine is spinning, even from kicking it over, it generates enough juice to fire the ignition system. The other half of the alternator is used for the lighting system. So it doesnt really need a battery etc etc to run fine. You will be in the dark...but moving...