math and metalworking

I'd say try trig. Even though just about every pocket calculator can do the math, you still need to know what a hypotenuse IS!! You'll thank me the first time you want to make a flywheel with some fancy slots on its face!!

Tom, Why Geometry? Mike

My degree is in Physics. I also have a MBA. I've taken advanced Calculus, complex analysis, geometry, matrix mathematics, accounting, econ., etc.

Take the trig. It will do you better. Trig is used in science and business. You can learn geometry on your own or in a classroom later.

Simon Shabtai Evan

mj wrote:

Geometry

Trig, though a CAD program can make you a trig wiz without knowing tangent from cosine. Facility with algebra is handy too, but the great majority of shop math beyond basic arithmetic is trig.

Ned Simmons

My experience with mathematics is that each step must be mastered fully before moving on to the next step. So if you don't have all the prerequisites for something my advice would be to work on those. That being said, machining is all about solid geometry. With lots of angles worked in. So both geometry and trigonometry are extremely useful.

One interesting factoid is that the ancient Greeks taught mathematics not as an engineering tool (although it was probably helpful then as now) but as a philosophic training for the mind. When you learn a bunch of mathematics you think differently. It is this different thinking that is useful in a shop, whether a home shop or industrial. I have always had a predilection for math, always loved it, always excelled in it, and still enjoy it. So I don't really remember not knowing basic sines and cosines and knowing that the complement of an angle is the difference between that angle and 180°. You really get screwed up trying to measure angles with a protractor if you don't know geometry, and you can't do much shop math without geometry. And if you are trying to solve a shop math problem of any complexity you will need basic algebraic skills. They aren't really different subjects, they are just slightly differing skills and the more familiar you are with all of them the easier you will have it in a shop and the more valuable you will be.

GWE

mj wrote:

Take Statistics. It may not apply all that much to your hobby, but it will be useful in business and science. It may be of some help in understanding the tolerances you need on parts so they will fit with other parts. A lot of measuring tools have ports so that it is easy to use statistics to figure out when one needs to replace cutters, etc.

Dan mj wrote:

I'd start with Algebra - it will help in the thought process and how to calculate things. After that if there is one - Take Trig - lots of Geometry in it already trig is calculations of angles... extension of algebra and then some. Geometry is a little theory based - always some good - but some - depending on instruction is not useful in a shop. The trig takes you where you need.

If you end up as a finance person - algebra will help. Algebra helps in calculations.

I'd say get an A in A!

Martin Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

mj wrote:

I'd say go with algebra. Here's why I'd say that:

Geometry and trig are both useful in the shop -- but a college level course in either is going to focus on theory as a preface to calculus. You will never, ever need to solve a trig identity or prove a geometry theorem in the shop! A vo-tech course on shop math, or even a book, will give you all the simple plane geometry and trig you'll ever need in the shop. You could learn all the trig you'd ever use in the shop in a single evening. All you'd ever use would be the sine, cosine and tangent functions (and their inverse functions) of right angles -- material for a single 1-hour lecture in a trig course.

What would you use them for? To calculate or set up angles using linear measurements or standards as with a sine bar, and to calculate motion in one direction from motion at a known angle to that direction as with the compound on a lathe. Calculate dimensions from other known dimensions at known angles as in how many running feet on a pitched roof of known X and Y dimensions.

Algebra often includes some descriptive geometry, specifically defining functions in terms of cartesian coordinates (X, Y, Z) , cylindrical coordinates and polar coordinates. That is very useful in the shop, and may well introduce all the trig you'd ever need.

Can't disagree w/ much in this thread, except for the statistics advice.... goodgawd.... And, statistics is not even *related* to tolerances or their understanding, UNLESS you are doing something like quality control, random samplings, etc.

Don's advice in particular, tho, speaks to the structure of the course--a good prof/book will make the material really useful, a lousy one will just waste your time/tuition money.

Mebbe check out the books in the bookstore of the courses you are considering, to sort of see the lay of the land, or even talk to the prof's assigned to teach them, ask what will be covered. A good *applied* geometry course could be more useful than a theory-oriented trig or algebra class.

In terms of the comment on learning all you need to know in an hour for shop math, while sort of true, it can take quite some time to become comfortable/fluent enough w/ the material/concepts to use them for your own problem solving. I have found that I have always had to learn much more in a formal setting to then be able to do even simple stuff on my own. ymmv.

There are some very good sh>

I took an engineering degree about 35 years ago and busted my butt with the maths they loaded us up with. Calculus, differential equations, second and higher order differential equations etc. etc. It was all necessary for the physics and control theory classes. In the last 35 years I have used calculus about once( to find a minimum point). Everything else has been just algebra,geo/trig and plain old arithmetic. Since the invention of Excel, I hardly used anything else. Take the trig, it will be useful in the shop.

I second that. Geometry teaches you how to think.

cheers T.Alan

Look to see if the school you are attending has a 'dummy math' course. These are generally made to help engineering students who messed up on the math enterance exams --- like I did years ago. The course went over algebra, geometry and trig in one semester and kind of puts it all together into one nice lump.

I had to take it because I was hung over on the day of the enterance exam. All my buddies flunked first semester calculus and I was in class with them second semester -- and aced the course. Ultimately I wound up with a degree in math.

Check for a survey course. Algebra, Trig and Geometry all work together form a great real world tool. Usually it's not the complex stuff that you need -- what you really need is just enough understanding to know where to look for the answers.

Rye

mj wrote:

Look to see if the school you are attending has a 'dummy math' course. These are generally made to help engineering students who messed up on the math enterance exams --- like I did years ago. The course went over algebra, geometry and trig in one semester and kind of puts it all together into one nice lump.

I had to take it because I was hung over on the day of the enterance exam. All my buddies flunked first semester calculus and I was in class with them second semester -- and aced the course. Ultimately I wound up with a degree in math.

Check for a survey course. Algebra, Trig and Geometry all work together form a great real world tool. Usually it's not the complex stuff that you need -- what you really need is just enough understanding to know where to look for the answers.

Rye

mj wrote:

Algebra is the foundation for both geometry and trigonometry. I cannot see how you can meaningfully learn anything in geometry and trigonometry, without being conversant with simple algebra.

A typical algebra course touches on geometry enough to become a gentle introduction into geometry. I would vote for definitely studying algebra and geometry, with trig being a distant third.

I would liken it to an accountant studying addition and subtraction. As you machine more, you will see that you are using the math of relationships in shapes, mostly circles and triangles. Most of it will be very simple and become second nature and you will visualize the effects that your cuts will make.

Don sez: Among other "noteworthys "> Algebra often includes some descriptive geometry, specifically

Resoundingly agree! Algebra is the calculation arm of mathematics; the intro-port into the fascinating world of math. Without it, there is can be little coordination among (between ?) the other branches of mathematics. Branches ? Why are they called brances ?? Algebra is the trunk of the math tree. Study it and it will take you into other math areas you're likely to be involved with in the shop.

Bob Swinney

And you didn't pay any attention thus far in math because?

Steve

I stick with my recommendation. Statistics is very much related to tolerances if you are doing designs that are going to be produced at a reasonable cost. But the main reason I recommended Statistics is that it did not sound like the poster was planning on an Engineering or Science career. More likely to end up in business. Would be more helpful there than trig, algebra, or geometry.

Dan

Proctologically Violated=A9=AE wrote: