math and metalworking

I cannot see how statistics can be even comprehended without knowing some basics of algebra -- square roots, binomials, etc. Going into probability distributions, needs some basic knowledge of calculus.

I think you can comprehend statistics with just high school courses in algebra. I learned square roots and binomials in grade school.

Dan

Rye, I think the school offers an "Intro to Math" course that I'll need to take. but then I have to take something above that because the "Intro" course will not fulfill my needs towards the degree. I am hoping it will cover everything like your are recommending.

Mike

WOW! I never expected to get so much advice on this! Thanks!

But you all aren't making my choice any easier either. I am starting to lean towards taking algebra. It has been awhile since I have done any algebra so that might be a good refresher. I am in the military, so they are paying pretty much all of my tuition. Once I decide on a course, I'll probably sign up for the other ones later. It appears that I won't be making too bad a choice whether I choose geometry or trig.

Thanks so far! Great reading. Mike

Geometry teaches you how to think - geometrically.

Spherical trig makes a better rounded mind...

:o

Steve, Probably because I was a slacker in high school. LOL The sad thing is, I was really good in math. I caught on to algebra quick. Some of the "smart" kids struggled. I carried a B grade in class without even trying. I had Cs and Ds for everything else. I did not apply myself and only took the very minimum to get my high school diploma. I'm 46 now and decided a degree would be pretty cool. Mike

Mike, I'm not sure. My advisor only said that I needed a "college level math course and it could not be an Intro course". I'll have to question him some more on that and have him OK my choice. I have to take the Intro course anyway because I need it as a preresiquite (?) for taking anything else at the school that I am taking my classes. Mike

Thanks for the suggestion, but Statistics is probably out. I am not sure if that will meet the math course requirement anyway. I am more interested in one of the other three anyway. Mike

Mike,

You don't identify the degree you seek, which makes it hard to give you a good answer. My reflexive answer is to take all the math you can fit into it, starting with algebra because "sort of know that already" is not a firm foundation, and algegbra is hugely important for anything else you will do.

A formal course in trigonometry is, IMHO, a bit of a waste if you take basic calculus, physics, and then branch off into any math/physics/engineering degree program. In any of those areas, you will learn trig as you go and in self defense.

If you are going for another type of degree, then trig arguably makes more sense than calculus, because while the latter exposes you to some trig, it is cast differently and won't really help you if you stop there.

If you are in doubt about what to do, and engineering appeals to you (owning a lathe and a mill certainly puts you "at risk"), please seriously consider studying engineering. IMHO, it is one of the best undergraduate degrees available. Obviously, it is not for everyone and if you are strongly pulled in another direction, go for it.

Good luck!

Bill

Well, I'm just genuinely curious:

Spose I'm making a part. I know, from general principle, that the *least* amount of a part requires makes for a cheaper part. So I determine just how much slop I can get away with.

Spose, through consultation, trial and error, etc., I determine that the .25 dia.pin I'm making can "tolerate" a maximum tolerance of +/-.005, but "feels" a little better w/ +/- .003 tolerance, altho production might be a little slower at .003.

It is now a judgment call to decide whether to go w/ .005, or .003

How would statistics, in any way, have helped me in this determination/judgment call?

Now, if I had just received 100,000 parts, and wanted to check the quality/precision of the batch, then I'd have to follow standard sampling guidelines, punch the numbers in a program, and see if I get a pass or fail. And even then I wouldn't really need statistics, cuz someone who knew the statistics already set up the algorithm/criteria, etc., so I can in fact just punch in the numbers.

Not saying statistics is not a noble endeavor, cuz it really is fascinating at its core. Just saying that proly not a single machinist or hobbyist in the goddamm world needs to know it.

Other than the relevance of statistical principles in general, which everyone should know, just as "self defense"--bell curves, standard deviations, etc.

Dan

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:

Ackshooly, here's the best idea:

Slick yer way thru math the easiest way you can, and then post all yer shop math Q's here! :)

And actually, apropo of some of the other advice, which basically said there's no such thing as too much math, you might be best served by taking the math that would be best for long-term/academic interests, and just fill in the blanks w/ help here on the group, or from some very good shop math books. With a good foundation, it will be all the more easy to fill in those blanks.

I'm not crazy about the analogy, but I think I get the point.

To expand on it a little, I think that machining, and its allied endeavors, would likely greatly potentiate the whole math/learningthinking process, mebbe by a full order of magnitude.

IOW, teach yer average video/game-playing suburban Goth-child geometry, trig, calculus, and w/ half a brain they'll get/slug through it, and proly try to forget the experience.

Teach that same curriculum to a kid who instead hung out in his dad's machine shop, actually DOIN sumpn, and he'd likely not only greatly excel, and even enjoy, that same geometry, trig, calc, but might also come away w/ new independent insights into things and the world. Which could then help his shop endeavors, which would then reinforce the academic/learning experience, etc. etc. A powerful learning tool, imo.

And the same should hold for adults.

Each shape you will make with your craft will be a geometric shape... just my two cents worth.

I strongly advise you to talk to the people who teach each of the classes. The content at college level could vary wildly depending on who is teaching it. I don't know if you'll get more useful info out of a professor or a graduate teaching assistant.

Steve

mj wrote:

Not exactly important for the poster's question, but I actually find I use calculus a lot, both in work and even in everyday life.

I don't mean I do integrals on cocktail napkins - that's not really the point. What's important is the ways of seeing and addressing the world that result from an understanding of calc. These can be very useful hints for solving problems, even if 99% of the calc you do is more or less "by eye". Real world calc problems tend to either be very simple, not require a precise answer, or be messy enough that you just get a numerical solution from the computer.

But back for a minute to doing calc by eye. A good graphical visualization of what is going on is so much more usefull than being able to use black magic on algebra, which is what the non-graphical part amounts to. If we could teach graphical calc in mid-high school, some of those ideas might actually get through. Instead we hit the kids with 2nd and 3rd year algebra exercises which exist chiefly to set up for the formal explanation of the calculus - a class most of them won't take. We make them do 90% of the work of calc, but only show the handful that survive that the dirty little tricks you can use to kill off the inconvenient algebraic terms and be left with something that simplifies down to a rewarding answer.

Bill, Good point on the degree! I never thought to post it.

I'm working on a ministry degree. I don't think I'll need to know alot of geometry or trig in preaching the Word of God. LOL. That is why I thought I would try to take something that would help out in my little machining hobby.

Thanks.

Mike

Mr. PV, LOL. Thanks. I have no doubt that whatever I take, I WILL be posting questions on the board.

As I posted above this post, my major is in ministry. I'm not sure how often I'll use algebra, geo, or trig in preaching the Word of God, but as long as I HAVE to take a course, I just as well take something that I might get some use out of.

Mike

I am not sure how deep your present knowledge of algebra is.

Can you solve this equation:

x*x - 1 = 0

Or this system:

x+y=3 x-y=1

If not, then you need to take algebra before you go into geometry or trigonometry, you cannot meaningfully understand anything about trigonometry until you can solve equations like the one I mentioned, and you would not be able to solve many geometry problems as well.

Right track! Keep your ojectives in focus:

objective 1: degree objective 2; math in shop

Pick yer course to best serve objective 1, e.g., least likely to impede progress toward sought degree. There are many ways to meet objective 2. Vo-tech courses in particular tend to focus on the practical and immediately-useful, while lower-level academic courses tend to "build a base" for more advanced study in a given area.