math and metalworking

Mike,

Trig might not help you preach, but it might help you help kids succeed in school (tutoring etc.). As it turns out, I will offer pretty much the same advice as before: if you are going to take a lot of math, skip a formal trig course, because you will pick it up other ways. If you would go no further than the basic calculus sequence (if that), then trig will probably do you more good than anything else, but ONLY after you make peace with algebra.

I disagree with posts suggesting that you should steer away from math because it is superfluous. Some skills based courses will give you a unique perspective when working with kids on the edge of failure. Some need a swift kick through the hoops in front of them; others need help making a graceful landing short of them, and you'll be more help to both groups if you can tell the difference between them.

Good luck!

Bill

Reply to
Bill Schwab
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I don't know, it might make for some unusual sermons...

Steve

Reply to
Steve Smith

Well if you are really trying to decide, you probably use some statistics to determine not just the tolerance of the pin, but also the tolerance of the hole it fits into. Then assuming that the distribution of the parts is Gausian, you can figure out how loose the tolerances can be and still have an acceptable assembly rate. You might set the tolerances so that once in say 3000 times the pin will not work with a hole. It might be cheaper to throw away a pin once in a while than to make closer tolerance pins.

If machinest don't need statistics, why does J & L sell so many measuring tools with a spc output port? And why does J & L sell statistical control software?

Engineering isn't just designing something so it works. Any damn fool can do that. An engineer designs it so it works and costs less.

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

Be sure to take a course in economics if you can. It is a real help in understanding a lot of things. Need convincing........Check out the book " Freakanomics ". Easy reading about good insights can be gained. Written by a economist.

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

You think? All my university economics course taught me was to distrust economists with their pseudo-scientific and psuedo-mathematical methods.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

The Nash Equilibrium notwithstanding, of course. :)

Other than that, a lot of people would agree with you.

But, otoh, above and beyond whatever legitimate science/math is actually in economics, it *is* a good jargon to learn, as it does make the effing world go 'round--well, approximately round, at any rate. :)

Also socially illuminating: For example, the very existence of the supply-demand curve (in its traditional shape), never mind the fact that it perhaps the economic equivalent to Thermodynamic Law, bespeaks the fact that our species is

*fundamentally* extorti>
Reply to
Proctologically Violated©®

Well if you are really trying to decide, you probably use some statistics to determine not just the tolerance of the pin, but also the tolerance of the hole it fits into. Then assuming that the distribution of the parts is Gausian, you can figure out how loose the tolerances can be and still have an acceptable assembly rate. You might set the tolerances so that once in say 3000 times the pin will not work with a hole. It might be cheaper to throw away a pin once in a while than to make closer tolerance pins.

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Good answer--the sampling I was referring to. But...

WTF does DAT have to do with **shop math**??????

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If machinest don't need statistics, why does J & L sell so many measuring tools with a spc output port?

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Ahm thinkin for the same reason Polar sells so many utterly useless heart rate monitors to joggers: cuz muhfugguhs think it looks cool?? :) :)

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And why does J & L sell statistical control software?

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For bean counters in charge of production--not for home shop machinists, or mom&pop commercial machinists. Have *yet* to meet a machinist use any of that stuff, and I've met a number of top-notch machinists. Post to amc, if you really want a reality check. Sure, really really big shops will use it. But not a *job* shop w/ 10 people or less.

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Engineering isn't just designing something so it works. Any damn fool can do that.

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Any damn fool? You gotta be kidding, right?

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An engineer designs it so it works and costs less.

------------------------ Costs less then what? Sounds like you're talking about either reverse engineering (theft), or grunt-work down the design line, *after* the *real* engineers solved the important problems. And not saying that there is not "real" engineering in cost-cutting--possibly some ingenuity involved there as well. But certainly not the same as "original design". Different types of engineering.

-- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll

Dan

Reply to
Proctologically Violated©®

Well if you are really trying to decide, you probably use some statistics to determine not just the tolerance of the pin, but also the tolerance of the hole it fits into. Then assuming that the distribution of the parts is Gausian, you can figure out how loose the tolerances can be and still have an acceptable assembly rate. You might set the tolerances so that once in say 3000 times the pin will not work with a hole. It might be cheaper to throw away a pin once in a while than to make closer tolerance pins.

If machinest don't need statistics, why does J & L sell so many measuring tools with a spc output port? And why does J & L sell statistical control software?

Engineering isn't just designing something so it works. Any damn fool can do that. An engineer designs it so it works and costs less.

Dan

Reply to
Robert Swinney

Which is a good point at which to mention that the statistics of manufacturing don't apply only to frequencies at which out-of-tolerance parts appear, but more often to following trends in order to anticipate the

*time* at which a process will go out of control and start producing bad parts. Of course, the idea is to correct things before the control limits are reached.

And it applies whether you're sampling the parts, or doing 100% inspection. Machinists of today, and especially of tomorrow, have to know these things.

-- Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

Steve,

With the absense of a smiley, I assume that are thinking of a minister's job as limited to preaching - I would submit that is perhaps the least important thing they do, most visible yes, most important, no.

Bill

Reply to
Bill Schwab

Keynesians??? Your point is taken, but not all economists are like that. Dr. Sowell's "Basic Economics" is a great read, and might restore some of your faith.

Bill

Reply to
Bill Schwab

In light of your ministry I'd suggest Geometry.

You only get 3 guesses why...

I happened on a book about the history of numbers, haven't had time to read it yet. Maybe you could take a course like this book is about and it will fill your math need. The Universal History of Numbers Georges Frah From prehistory to the Invention of the Computer

Reply to
Sunworshipper

Mr. PV, This is a good point. It appears that I forgot more about algebra than I first thought. Those look "easy" and I could probably figure them out through trial and error, but not a real "system".

BTW...the top x is 1. the bottom x is 2. The y is 1.

But that is just a guess.

:)

Mike

Reply to
mj

I don't see how I limited their job.....;) Methinks you're making too many assumptions.

Steve

Bill Schwab wrote:

Reply to
Steve Smith

============================ Check and see if they have a technical or shop math class. I used to teach one. This combined trig [mainly for using sine bars] and lots of ratio work for sfm, tooth loads, etc.

This will most likely be on the vo-tec side of the house.

Uncle George

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

Algebra and geometry are different branches of the math tree. Algebra is of arab origin, that's why so many people suffer with it :) Geometry is of greek origin, that's why it is a breeze to comprehend and once you understand the thinking principle, you can derive all of it by yourself and eventually understand the universe.

cheers T.Alan

Reply to
T.Alan Kraus

In that case, how does some knowledge of basic mathematics affect his future sermons?

Bill

Reply to
Bill Schwab

I agree that the hobby machinist and the small shop machinest don't need or use much in the way of statistics. But I think statistics help in understanding a lot of what occurs in the world.

I am not talking about reverse engineering. But say you are designing a intercontinental ballistic missile. Say three stages and a post boost bus. Say roughly a lb of weight on a reentry body is equivalent to 3 lbs on the bus, maybe 10 lbs on the third stage, 25 lbs on the second stage, and 60 lbs on the first stage. So saving weight is really important on the RB, but much less important on the first stage. Any damn fool can use the lightest materials everywhere, but an engineer will figure out how to use appropriate material on the first stage, and spend the big bucks on the bus and the RB's. Aluminum on the stages, thor mag on the bus? Should you use a lot of parallel and series redundancy on just the first and second stages? How much should you spend for hi-rel parts? How important is the timing of the release of the RB's? Do you need timing to with a microsecond or will a millisecond do? Which is more important, the timing of RB release, or the accuracy of the bus attitude. How do you design this missile so it fits in the defense department budget?

The costs less that what is costs less than the competing companies bids. Any damn fool can design one that works, a engineer designs one that wins the contract.

Look at Boeing and Air Bus. Aluminum or composite fuselage? 300 seats or 400 seats. Which one costs less to build, maintain, fly. That determines who sells the most planes. You get the idea. That original design has to consider cost too.

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

Guys, You are killing me here! LOL. I don't know if I need to be fluent in geo or trig for preaching. I base this on the fact that the church that I have attended for the last five years, the pastor has NEVER given a sermon on the hypothesuse of a triangle. But I'd still sort of like to see where this conversation is going to go. Mike

Reply to
mj

I still don't see any limitations imposed on my part, do you really see any? I spoke of a specific aspect of a pastor's job.

It was a joke, Bill, and one that I don't see anything to take offense at. Sorry, I don't have any good follow-ons of how sermons might be affected.

Steve

Reply to
Steve Smith

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