Mostly OT: meeting with some designers of cardiac implants

Photos not available per no binaries on this NG.

I met today with at least a dozen folks at Boston Scientific (BSC), where I'd been invited to share my findings re: a person (me) with implanted cardioverter doing welding with processes that involve an electric arc. There are several such processes in common use. My interest and investigation focussed on two such processes that I've used and want to continue to use, MIG and TIG. I don't care about stick anymore because there's nothing I'd do with stick that I can't do at least as well with MIG. YMMV.

Y'all may recall that the usual guidance is "don't do it" and that I wasn't satisfied with that broad-brush treatment so I did a bit of investigation. The good folks at BSC were very helpful about providing me technical info beyond "don't do it", and they were very interested in my findings. They have a huge campus in a northern suburb of St. Paul. I had no idea they were this large. See attached satellite shot. (Sorry, RCM) I know the parts contained in my red outline are Guidant (now BSC) and some of the buildings outside my red bound may also be theirs. Upon arrival I was met by Ken and we walked thru a long skyway encircled in yellow on the attached sat view. This skyway has display cases showing their history, and the walls are lined with many hundreds of patent plaques. There are 8 senior technical fellows on this campus, four of them attended this meeting. I suspect that is quite unusual. In my experience, it usually takes at least a vice presidential presence to get more than two or three senior fellows in the same meeting. The rep who assisted with my implant was also there. They showed me a Telegen that was all taken apart so I could see what was inside. They loved it when I got my magnifying glass out of my pocket. "Does that lens have video?" "Oh yeah, spread-spectrum wireless -- see that innocent-looking van down there in the parking lot?" They make their own capacitors, lithium-iodine batteries and titanium cans. Guidant actually pioneered the use of lithium-iodine batteries in these devices, Medtronic followed somewhat later. During an excellent luncheon they told me quite a lot about the device I have, including the signal processing technology used -- fascinating! The presenter was delighted to see that I was tracking just fine. When I'd paraphrase to check my understanding he'd beam and say "yes! That's exactly right!" I also saw some history. Implanting a cardioverter as recently as the 80's was a big deal: several hours of surgery which included splitting the sternum and sewing a conductive patch to the heart. The devices were nearly the size of a paperback book. I'm definitely glad I waited. I got to see leads like those that were snaked thru my veins and lodged in my heart. I can see how that's a tricky bit of craft. The physician is guided by real-time fluoroscopy but it's a good trick to make a lead take a hard left when it must do so to get where it needs to be. Then it was my turn. I'd prepared a powerpoint presentation just to remain more or less organized ... but I had NO "bullet" word slides. I purely hate those impediments to discourse. I brought it on an USB stick because Ken had said all of their conference rooms have 'puters and projectors that someone presumably has made work together. That seemed simpler than messing with my laptop. My slides were all photographs of the instrumentation I built, lab setups, scans of pages from my lab databook including scribbles and X-outs, oscilloscope screen shots, etc. I suppose I spoke for about 45 minutes not including discussion time. I invited open discussion and spontaneous questions any time. The atmosphere was very casual and collegial. I brought most of the hardware I'd built as "finger food" to pass around and look at. Engineers love "real stuff". They seemed to thoroughly enjoy it. One asked, "you did all of this in a week and a half?" "Uh, more like 5 days ... but I was motivated!" At another juncture someone asked how I might choose between welding processes as in TIG vs MIG. I gave several reasons, including that TIG is much more amenable to precise welding of small objects like "butt welding needles together." I got an odd look. "Why on Earth would you butt-weld needles together?" I grinned and said, "hey, I'm retired, I don't have to make sense!" They loved it. These folks clearly care about what they do beyond production of income. They see preservation and extension of quality life as what they do. There are signs in the parking lot depicting active people doing what they want to do. I heard one comment, "not exactly our typical customer..." Another said "geez, kin we hire him?" The general impression seemed to be that they were amazed at how thorough I had been in the limited time I had. That was easy to explain: avoidance of mulekicks to chest is an excellent motivator. One younger engineer, maybe mid-30's, introduced himself as being pretty much the fields and EMI guy. His name was Kippola. I said, "are you a Finn?" The tech rep lady looked at me like "did you really say that?" but Mr. Kippola grinned, said "yup"! "Michigan Tech?" He beamed. "Yup!" "AW RIGHT! We're probably the only two in the room that can pronounce sauna correctly." He laughed. "Oooh, yah!" It is possible to trick this device with an external magnet to either disable delivery of shock therapy or just to record what it's seeing. I knew this before but the doc slammed that lid shut right now. Today the tech rep sorta conspiratorally said that she'd be talking to both Dr. Lin and the device nurse. This could get interesting. I was impressed with her immediately upon first meeting post-implant, in my hospital room early next morning. High-energy, totally open to questions and she had answers. Kevin S. showed up. He and I worked on several projects together back at HON and had a lot of fun doing them. The notion of having fun at work was somewhere between novel and anarchistic in many parts of HON but it seems to be quite OK at BSC. Maybe Kevin brought a little of that with him when he went there, who knows? I left a CD with them that has my powerpoint slides, all of my data, mfrs datasheets of key parts I used to make my instrumentation, photos, etc etc that pretty much documents everything I did, how I did it, why I did it that way, what I was thinking, and my results and conclusions. Someone mentioned patent possibilities. I said as far as I'm concerned my stuff is all available free to anyone interested. They gave me a lapel pin that I think is a total hoot: it's a red heart with a yellow lightning bolt. They actually gave me two of them, one for Mary. They also gave me a very nice polo shirt with "Boston Scientific" embroidered over the pocket. It was a lot of fun. I had a great time today.

Reply to
Don Foreman
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Don, Good job! Those folks are true professionals and exposure to them is very unusual. Your activities clearly perked their interest. I had a similar experience to yours with FN in Belgium (another story), but it is very personally rewarding when others recognize your work. Steve

Reply to
Steve Lusardi

Great read, Don. I can see you're a hard guy to say no to. So, bottom line, is it safe to TIG weld? Only with certain precautions?

Karl

Reply to
Karl Townsend

Great story!

Reply to
guillemd

Reading your account was a nice way to start the morning.

Wes

Reply to
Wes

On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 01:24:34 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman scrawled the following:

So where are they available? Or is the PPT slideshow emailable? Sounds like fun.

--snippage of good discourse--

You bet they are. You saved them (tens/hundreds of?) thousands of dollars worth of investigative work.

Aren't you glad they had considerable experience with (and miniaturization technology for) these things -before- you got yours? ;)

Yeah, thumb drives are a whole lot easier to work with.

Good show, mate. We wannabe engineers do, too.

Bwahahahaha!

And that's marketing.

Is that UP talk?

That's definitely the type of person you need to talk to at those times. It's too bad that more people don't "get it."

Howzbout ULing those to the Dropbox?

Cool.

Excellent! And thanks for the play-by-play on your field trip, Don.

Stay well!

-- "Not always right, but never uncertain." --Heinlein -=-=-

Reply to
Larry Jaques

Don,

Great work & a great write-up! I've occasionally gotten involved in what I call "rabid research", where the answer to a question just isn't out there, and requires a home grown science project. Yours is the most wonderfully extreme and successful story of all. My hats off to you.

Doug White

Reply to
Doug White

I have to say congrats to you for doing a splendid job of applied research. And I have to say congrats to them for overcoming the usual NIH syndrome and inviting you to come in and present to them.

As for the getting the project done in 5 days: It's amazing what focus and no distractions can do for a project. I've had students do industry projects, had the Engineering Manager tell me "we should have you do all our prototype development. You can do it much faster and better than we can" That was for a project where the goal was 65% reduction in mfg costs, my students only got 60% of the cost out but the field reliability went up by 5 to 10 times.

But maybe you DO want to take >

Reply to
RoyJ

--Sometimes someone on this group spins gold. Thanks for that! :-)

Reply to
steamer

Oh you bastard.

"Butt welding needles".

Now I have to save up for a TIG machine, to make _proper_ landing gear for scale model airplanes.

Will any old TIG machine do?

Reply to
Tim Wescott

Sounds like it. Isn't it great when you get to talk with the guys who know their stuff?

Kevin Gallimore

Reply to
axolotl

-------------- Wonderful outcome and thanks for the "rest of the story" report back to the group.

Unka' George [George McDuffee]

------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

Maybe Paul Harvey is still around. :-) ...lew...

Reply to
Lew Hartswick

I'm duly impressed. I went back through the archives, made up this set of excerpts from Don's postings. Makes a very interesting read.

Did I say I was really impressed?

Excerpts from Don: (Make sure you look at the dates AND times!)

1/6/09

Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG, particularly TIG with HF?

My limited web research indicates not but I'd like to see more data. Here's what I've found thus far:

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1/13/09 12:40 AM

Summary: not lookin' promising.

I've had contact with some good people: a senior fellow engineer at a major ICD mfr, a former employee (engineer) of a major ICD mfr and friend of many years, my wife's niece who is a former cardiac nurse of 30+ years experience, and helpful others.

Findings:

There are reported cases of weldors returning to work with ICD's but the reports are sketchy on details. One report mentions a minimum distance of 24" between weldor and cables, work and torch. That ain't how I weld: my face is right in there with 2 diopter lenses in my mask.

The experience of having a defib misfire has been variously described as being hit by lightning and being kicked in the chest by a mule. I'd rather skip that experience. Welding is fun, being kicked in the chest by a mule very probably isn't.

I can't seem to get data on acceptable field strengths (E-field and H or B field) that won't cause an ICD to malfunction. I opined that this is probably because the goddamned lawyers make this data highly proprietary. That was confirmed by the engineer (and friend) formerly employed by a major mfr. Goddamned lawyers.

So I'm about SOL here, not being up for a mule kick in chest while experimenting, candyass that I am.

Helluvit is that I have no friends who can do TIG and MIG, though Karl Townsend's son "the kid" may be a savior. Neither of my sons are at all interested. One daughter is, and she's done some nice work with MIG but she lives in Brooklyn NY so she's not exactly local.

Mar, bless her hawrt, has volunteered that she might do a Vo-Tech course in TIG and MIG. She'd be a natural, that based on her precision quilting and prowess with handgun, both hand-eyes coordination activites. TBD how that goes, but whatta teammate for even considering it, eh? Hey, she severely aced ground school for pilot licence for previous hub in the bad old days. Highest score they'd ever seen if I recall correctly. What a fool he was for doing her wrong, what good luck for me and eventually us. Goin' on 30 years now and it just keeps getting better.

Most folks are quite happily "weld free" in their dotages, right? Still, it's a bit of a lump to be prohibited from practicing a skill and activity I've enjoyed developing over decades and frequently find useful in my shop. Oh shit oh dear, poor me.

I intend to wallow in this for a while, f*ck you if you can't take a joke. I'm not happy about this, but it's no secret that gettin' old ain't for sissies.

1/13/09 11:20 PM

Lots of new data today. Tons. I actually did get some real EMI specifications, thanks to the good folks at Boston Scientific. The key spec is probably 60Hz B field at 1 gauss (0.1 millitesla). Finally, something I can get some traction with. I need to make some measurements, but I think 1 gauss might not be a problem if I dress the cables well and keep the current below 200 amps which would not be an issue at all. I could probably keep it below 125 amps without giving up much. Gotta build a little gauss sensor. I'll do that tomorrow. I have linear Hall sensors and instrumentation opamps in the goodie box, no prob. I can TIG a shielded box together for it since I can still TIG. Fitch is loaning me his scope meter (battery powered, digital, with memory) for logging data while I weld mask-down. That'll arrive tomorrow by UPS blue label. I can piss and moan with sleeves rolled up.

I'm learning that part of the problem here is an attitude problem, and I don't mean mine. I either need to get the electrofizz doc's attitude shifted or find a different one pronto.

I'd forgotten that one of my gentleman shooting buds used to work at Guidant, now Boston Scientific. Sent him an email last night. He shook his old-colleague bush a bit and lordy did the fruit fall! One particularly encouraging note was from a Senior Engineering Fellow who happened to be skiing in Taos but answered other Senior Engineering Fellow's call anyway. For those unfamiliar with engineering orgs or academia, few engineers attain the status/rank/title of Fellow. It's a bit like General in the military, except that I think most Fellows are paid better than Generals.

His first comment was particularly encouraging:

Reply to
RoyJ

It will be. I still have some E-field concerns from the HF start, but E-fields are amenable to control with shielding.

Reply to
Don Foreman

I would think so. Mine is an old Miller Dialarc HF. But you can also buttweld needles very nicely with a Smith Little Torch.

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I even weld thermocouples from 24 gage wire with the Little Torch.

Reply to
Don Foreman

At 65 megs I'd say not. I tried zipping it, didn't help. Powerpoint is horribly consumptive but I'm amazed that zipping doesn't help.

Yah, it's Yooper which is very similar to MN Iron Raincher (phonetic spelling of ranger).

I don't think they accept .ppt files.

Reply to
Don Foreman

Wow! I'm savin' that. Thanks, RoyJ!

Reply to
Don Foreman

I'd like to hear more about your experience with FN in Belgium if you can share it.

Reply to
Don Foreman

On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 00:13:12 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman scrawled the following:

Crikey, is that a six hour presentation, or what? =:0>

Condolences. ;)

And a real biggie at that. Did you use multi-MB file sizes on the pics? How many pages are in that beast?

-- "Not always right, but never uncertain." --Heinlein -=-=-

Reply to
Larry Jaques

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