Old Bullet Disposal?

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 00:58:14 GMT, Lewis Hartswick


Black powder, Giant Powder, White Powder, and many ANFO prills pretty much fall into the Low Order explosive catagory
http://www.wmd-nm.org/members/office/glossary/index.asp?where=l Definition: Classification of explosives that deflagrate rather than detonate. Primarily used as propellants, low explosives may be initiated by a simple flame or acid/flame reaction, and do not require the shock of a blasting cap. Common examples include black powder and smokeless powder.
http://www.uspto.gov/go/classification/uspc149/defs149.htm Are classified (a) as HIGH EXPLOSIVE, which, for the purpose of this class, is one whose rate of reaction is substantially instantaneous or detonating in character, and is either (1) an extremely sensitive or highly reactive or detonating chemical compound which is known as a PRIMARY EXPLOSIVE and is used to initiate the secondary or other explosive component of the charge; or (2) is a composition of a combination of two or more primary explosives and as such is known as a SECONDARY or other DERIVED EXPLOSIVE. Such an explosive reacts with detonating force or brisance which is sufficient to shatter the surrounding medium; (b) as LOW EXPLOSIVE, which for the purpose of this class, is controlled to some time interval, less than instantaneous, and as compared to that of high explosive, is slow or deflagrating (burning) in character. It has the property or power to displace the surrounding medium. Although it may be used for certain blasting purposes it is used principally as PROPELLANT to set in motion bullets, missiles or similar devices regardless of size.
These of course are rather flawed definitions, as most of the fulminates would thus be catagorized as a Low Explosive, and they do indeed detonate without the use of a blasting cap, only simple flame or acid/flame reaction. And of course..where do we catagorize any compound that is shock sensitive?
Which reminds me..by the above definition, I put 9.5 gallons of 87 octane Low Explosive in my gas tank this afternoon.
So lets say that cartridges, like your Honda, do contain Low Explosives, just for sake of argument.
Now what?
Gunner
" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age... I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity, bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity, fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We *assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation to keep the State out of the church business, we've destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*. Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives
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So Gunner, I'll ask again.
What kind of Idiot needs proof that disposing of explaosives in the garbage is not a good idea.
Assuming a previous post is correct, an Idiot with a license to work with explosives.
LMAO

Of course they are, Gunner. Nobody knows anything except for you.
http://www.ordnance.org/classifi.htm
http://wrc.chinalake.navy.mil/warfighter_enc/weapons/ordnance/class.htm
http://ncfs.ucf.edu/twgfex/gloss_terms.pdf
http://www.fireandsafety.eku.edu/VFRE-99/Recognition/General/General.htm
http://www.psemc.com/references.asp
http://www.chemistry.usna.edu/urban/explosives_f03.pdf
Why don't you write the Navel Acadamy Chemestry department, tell them how their flawed.
--
Mark

N.E. Ohio
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wrote:

Great sites by the way. Thanks. Bookmarked.

I notice you continue to pick nits beyond practicality. What is the downside to disposing of a few rounds of ammunition again by simply dropping it in the trash? Please enumerate the dangers and the probablities. Im sure you can do so.
Just out of curiosity...how do you personally, dispose of your "explosives", such as spray paint cans, starting fluid cans, old flour (you do know that flour is a low order explosive, correct?) etc etc.
Inquring minds want to know.
And would you like me to change my reasonable tone, to match yours? Id be most happy to do so..but Im afraid you might get your feelings hurt.......
Gunner
" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age... I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity, bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity, fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We *assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation to keep the State out of the church business, we've destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*. Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives
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Gunner wrote:

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

Gunner! Your on the run!
--
Mark

N.E. Ohio
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wrote:

Mark! you are still not answering the question. Your massive snip and clip is rather typical of you (and Jim Rozen btw) and disengenious.
Please answer the question.
Gunner
" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age... I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity, bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity, fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We *assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation to keep the State out of the church business, we've destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*. Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives
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Sometimes it's tough to find the post amongst the sig line.
Jim
================================================= please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com =================================================
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Gunner wrote:

I usually get rid of flower by the pancake disposal method. Although sometimes I use the waffle disposal method. Someday I hope to advance to using the cake , cookie and pie crust method.
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Mark

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On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:58:40 -0000, "Beelzebub"

Hummmm...leme think...maybe..ah..err..perhaps it was on the test I took to get my blasters license...ah..shrug.
Now this has what to do with small arms ammunition?
Gunner " ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age... I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity, bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity, fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We *assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation to keep the State out of the church business, we've destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*. Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives
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wrote:> >Have either of you heard the terms "high explosive" and "low explosive"

Oh right - by any chance are you ex USMC?

You stated elsewhere that small arms ammunition contains no explosive - I had merely wondered if you did actually realise that small arms cartridges do indeed contain explosive compositions....
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On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:00:21 -0000, "Beelzebub"

No..Army Ranger actually..many many years ago, in a galaxy far far away.

Yes indeed they do, in fact, but in practicality..shrug. The composition of smokless powder, depending on single or double based powder, has a quantity of nitroglycering in it. As does some heart medication. The quantity of true explosives in the priming admixture is very small, and unless it detonates in the palm of your hand..is rather moot as well.
The original topic was how to dispose of several loaded rounds of ammunition. Posters implied that they were to be treated as WMD. Shrug..such is not the case. Others implied that burning them, or dropping them in the trash would lead to dire consequences for innocent parties. Such is not the case unless very very unusual circumstances were to occur in rather unusual order. Shrug.
Can small arms ammunition be dangerous when intentionally mishandled? Yes indeed. Every small boy learns this fact (at least in the US) with a great deal of delight. Manipulated into being dangerous. Indeed.
Mark IRRC made the statement that only an idiot would not equate small arms ammuniton with explosives, the implication being High Explosives, as few people understand that many things are Low explosives, such as gasoline, acohol, spray paint propellents etc etc. And continued to pick nits in application and practicality.
I responded that as a (practical) matter, Small arms ammunition has no relationship to the (implied) High Explosives..and was called again, an idiot.
With some work, many chemicals may be rendered into high explosives, be it a mercury filled thermometer, or various cleaning supplies under one's kitchen sink. But as such are not to be considered Explosives in the general meaning of things until the procedures to to do so, are actually done.
Was I technically wrong? Indeed. Was I in practicality wrong in the context? No. But then I only spoke about the practicality of the issue of a few rounds of small arms ammuniton being disposed of.
Also noted was the failure of my debating opponents to discuss calling a EOD team for disposal of their explosives, such as spray paint, gasoline, cooking flour, vacuum cleaner dust, propane, old movie film, celluloid collar buttons or old photo negatives. All of which may be made to detonate/burn in either a low or high order explosion.
Practiality and common usage.
Shrug.
Gunner

" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age... I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity, bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity, fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We *assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation to keep the State out of the church business, we've destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*. Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives
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wrote:> >Oh right - by any chance are you ex USMC?

Ah right, just wondered. I used to work with the USMC and USAF in EOD.

cartridges
<snip explosives talk>
Whilst I admit that small arms ammo is not in same league as high explosive munitions, I think I'd probably contact my local gun club, police station or somewhere like that and have them dispose of the items, if I was unable to just fire them off myself somewhere safe. We generally dispose of small arms munitions by burning in an old APC.
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On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 17:52:04 -0000, "Beelzebub"

I agree..however the OP mentioned a Few Rounds..several IRRC..indicating a very small amount, less than a handful, found in a desk or something.
Shrug.
Gunner The methodology of the left has always been:
1. Lie 2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible 3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible 4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie 5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw 6. Then everyone must conform to the lie
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    [ ... ]

    So far, I have not seen anyone mention the possibility that these are inactive rounds -- loaded to serve as setting references for bullet seating dies. I have a few such which I made up -- and keep with the set of dies with which I use them. Check the primers for indentations indicating that they have been fired, or even removal, since the internal sizing die would normally eject the primer, and there would be little point to installing a new primer in a reference round.
    Also -- they may be for testing the cartridge handling of an autoloader without the risk of having a live round in the chamber where you can't have a safe direction to shoot them.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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On 18 Dec 2003 23:59:49 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols) wrote:

Excellent point, and one Id not considered. I have dummy cartridges for each of the cartridges I load for, not to mention quite an assortment of factory made dummies. I was at least <G> peripherally involved in the development of the A-zoom line of dummy cartridges currently available from Lyman.
excellent point indeed. Id not considered the OPs unfamilarity with "cartridges" and hadnt thought he might not be able to distinquish between a loaded round and a dummy, so made an automatic assumption th at they were live rounds. Mea Culpa.
Thanks! Sometimes one simply thinks inside the box a bit too much with things one is intimately familiar with.
Gunner
" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age... I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity, bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity, fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We *assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation to keep the State out of the church business, we've destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*. Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives
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    [ ... ]

    A question -- while I agree that the propellant in the rounds is not an explosive, I wonder about the primer. I think that the combustion rate in that *might* be in excess of the speed of sound -- but I'm not sure where to look it up.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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On 13 Dec 2003 23:14:28 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols) wrote:

Standard priming compound is typically a lead azide or lead styphnate mixture with a deterent to slow things down a bit. Yes, they probably do burn at rates faster than 340.29 m / s, and yes, they can be considered explosve, but with the size of the priming pellet..its very small..
If the cartridges in question were REALLY old, they may have been primed with Potassium chlorate admixtures. Maybe.
There are currently several lead free priming compounds, but I do not know what they are, however they would have equivilent burn rates to standard compounds else the case/flash hole/charge/powder would have to be rather different for usage.
From the SAAMI website www.saami.org
"One important product of the SLARAC Committee is a video, Sporting Ammunition and the Firefighter, which was produced by the Committee many years ago. The video analyzes the characteristics associated with the small arms ammunition when it is subjected to severe impact and fire. When a primer ignites, it causes the propellant to burn which creates gases which, when under pressure in a firearm, send the bullet down the barrel. Pressure created by the propellant being burned is what discharges a bullet. As such, loose ammunition in a fire does not result in bullets being discharged because the propellant is not burning under pressure. The video, which has been widely circulated to fire departments, concludes that while ammunition produces a popping sound when it burns, there is no mass detonation of the ammunition, any projectiles are of low velocity, and there is no threat to firefighters in their standard turn-out gear."
From NFPA:
11-5 Small Arms Primers
11-5.1 Small arms primers shall be transported or stored in containers approved by the US Department of Transportation.
11-5.2 Transportation of small arms primers shall comply with US Department of Transportation Regulations.
11-5.3 No more than 25,000 small arms primers may be transported in a private vehicle.
11-5.4 No more than 10,000 small arms primers may be stored in residences.
11-5.5 No more than 10,000 small arms primers may be displayed in commercial establishments.
11-5.6 Commercial stocks of small arms primers shall be stored as follows:
(a) Quantities not exceeding 750,000 may be stored in a building if not more than 100,000 are stored in any one pile and piles are at least 15 ft (4.6 m) apart.
(b) Quantities exceeding 750,000 may be stored in a building if the following conditions are met:
1. The warehouse or storage room shall not be accessible to unauthorized personnel.
2. Primers shall be stored in cabinets. No more than 200,000 primers shall be stored in any one cabinet.
3. Shelves in cabinets shall have vertical separation of at least 2 ft (0.6 m).
4. Cabinets shall be located against walls of the warehouse or storage room with at least 40 ft (12.2 m) between cabinets.
5. Separation between cabinets may be reduced to 20 ft (6.1 m) if barricades twice the height of the cabinets are attached to the wall, midway between each cabinet. The barricades shall extend at least 10 ft (3 m) outward, shall be firmly attached to the wall, and shall be constructed of 1/4 in. (6.4 mm) boiler plate, 2 in. (51 mm) thick wood, brick or concrete block.
6. Primers shall be separated from materials classified by the US Department of Transportation as flammable liquids, flammable solids, and oxidizing materials by a distance of 25 ft (7.63 m) or by a fire partition having a fire resistance of at least 1 hour.
7. The building shall be protected by an automatic sprinkler system installed according to NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems.
(c) Small arms primers not stored according to (a) or (b) above shall be stored in a magazine meeting the requirements of Chapter 6.
Reprinted with permission from NFPA 495: Explosive Material Code, Copyright 1992, National Fire Protection Association, Quincy, MA 02269. This reprinted material is not the complete and official position of the National Fire Protection Association on the referenced subject which is represented only by the standard in its entirety.
NOTE:
11-5.3 No more than 25,000 small arms primers may be transported in a private vehicle.
What other Explosive requires no placarding, no special transportation requirements etc etc?
Yes, primers are the dangerous part of a cartridge in a fire. No one, least of all I, indicated that..but the danger is very small. Id hazard to say that placing river rocks in a bonfire is more dangerous than a handful of ammunition.
I do speak from years of experience in many aspects of this particular subject.
Gunner
"Guns aren't toys. They're for family protection, hunting dangerous or delicious animals, and keeping the King of England out of your face."
-- Krusty the Clown, "The Simpsons"
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So, technically Frank was correct - in principle?
It's a poor teacher who steps on the students' toes.
Jim
================================================= please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com =================================================
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wrote:

No, yes, maybe. If the Feds dont consider ammunition an explosive, but a class C propellent, even when being shipped via UPS...the concern is moot.. Its not uncommon for UPS to deliver "spam cans" of ammo to houses all over this country. One should note..that strike anywear kitchen matches cannot be shipped UPS but only truck freight, to give you some idea of the danger potential..
Shrug.
Gunner

"Guns aren't toys. They're for family protection, hunting dangerous or delicious animals, and keeping the King of England out of your face."
-- Krusty the Clown, "The Simpsons"
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That was already covered in your 'match' thread of several months ago, and the identification of the ebay seller who was mailing them to his customers, and what would probably happen to him if he were caught doing so.
<g>
But as far as I know, most ammo boxes don't come with the instructions "to dispose of unused cartriges, throw in fire."
<gg>
Jim
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wrote:

LOL..true. Though Ive yet to read one that says Call EOD or 55D team.
Ill have to look. IIRC most say Dispose of Properly <G>
Gunner
"Guns aren't toys. They're for family protection, hunting dangerous or delicious animals, and keeping the King of England out of your face."
-- Krusty the Clown, "The Simpsons"
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