Old Bullet Disposal?

Makes one wonder what kind of Idiot would need a citation/ reference (AKA: proof) on how bad an idea it is to dispose of explosives in the garbage.

Highly unlikely that the proper circumstances will occur to make a single round pop. And as the pop will occur inside a steel container, it will be harmless.

I dropped a live 9vt battery once, into the same pocket of a nearly new down filled parka, that contained two .22lr rounds. An hour later, there was a muffled FOOP! and a small cloud of feathers erupted from the front of my parka.. I felt a Thump against my side but not any pain. Examination showed what had happened. Was I lucky I didnt get a bit of brass stuck in my hide? Yup, particulary at contact range.

Have you ever burned any ammunition? When it finally cooks off. the bullet tends to move a couple inches, and the case opens up and may fly up to 3 feet away. The most dangerous part is the primer cap itself..and it may fly up to 20 feet, though generally it stays with the case. Even fire departments dont worry much about burning ammo.

In fact...the standard method of destroying large quanties of captured or obsolete ammunition is via burning.

Good for you. Caution is always a good thing.

Gunner

"Guns aren't toys. They're for family protection, hunting dangerous or delicious animals, and keeping the King of England out of your face."

-- Krusty the Clown, "The Simpsons"

Makes one wonder what kind of Idiot would equate small arms ammunition with explosives?

Small arms ammunition have no explosives in them.

See the ignorance. Sigh..stick with things you know something about.

Gunner "Guns aren't toys. They're for family protection, hunting dangerous or delicious animals, and keeping the King of England out of your face."

-- Krusty the Clown, "The Simpsons"

Ehhh... Having just recently been through a fire, I can tell you you're wrong on that score. They could care less about shotgun shells (paper or plastic) but brass scares the hell out of them. As one of the firemen who tracked me down specifically to ask me if there was any ammunition in the house said, "We don't care about shotgun shells - they lay there and either fizz, or go up in a flash of smoke and light, leaving nothing but a pile of shot or the slug, and some scorched paper or melted plastic. But brass scares the living s*it out of most of us - true, there's no telling which way the bullet might go when the round cooks off, but that's not the main worry - the bullet itself doesn't usually go much of anywhere unless it's in the chamber of a gun. The brass case, on the other hand, tends to take off like a rocket, and often has jagged razor edges that can rip a man up real bad before he even realizes that anything has happened."

From what he was telling me, it's all about that "equal and opposite reaction" thing... The bullet weighs enough that it more or less just lays there when the round cooks off. The case is a different story- It basically becomes a small rocket engine, frequently one with blown-out edges that can dice you up in a heartbeat if you're in the way.

You remind me of a line from an old song,

"Were you born an asshole or did you work at it your whole life?"

Gunner, I didn't want to believe you were this obtuse but I'm afraid I was wrong.

Have a happy life.

A question -- while I agree that the propellant in the rounds is not an explosive, I wonder about the primer. I think that the combustion rate in that *might* be in excess of the speed of sound -- but I'm not sure where to look it up.

Enjoy, DoN.

I believe this. As kids growing up on the farm, we would stick the bullet of a .22 in the ground and back off and shoot it with a bb gun. The brass would go zinging away. Luckily, no one was ever hit.

So..you are saying that small arms ammunition DO have explosives in them? Interesting. What kind? PetN? Comp4? Some form of prill or gel? RDX? Semtex? Mercury Fulminate?

Give me a hint..whats its brisance and the speed of detonation so I can look it up?

Gunner

"Guns aren't toys. They're for family protection, hunting dangerous or delicious animals, and keeping the King of England out of your face."

-- Krusty the Clown, "The Simpsons"

Standard priming compound is typically a lead azide or lead styphnate mixture with a deterent to slow things down a bit. Yes, they probably do burn at rates faster than 340.29 m / s, and yes, they can be considered explosve, but with the size of the priming pellet..its very small..

If the cartridges in question were REALLY old, they may have been primed with Potassium chlorate admixtures. Maybe.

There are currently several lead free priming compounds, but I do not know what they are, however they would have equivilent burn rates to standard compounds else the case/flash hole/charge/powder would have to be rather different for usage.

From the SAAMI website

"One important product of the SLARAC Committee is a video, Sporting Ammunition and the Firefighter, which was produced by the Committee many years ago. The video analyzes the characteristics associated with the small arms ammunition when it is subjected to severe impact and fire. When a primer ignites, it causes the propellant to burn which creates gases which, when under pressure in a firearm, send the bullet down the barrel. Pressure created by the propellant being burned is what discharges a bullet. As such, loose ammunition in a fire does not result in bullets being discharged because the propellant is not burning under pressure. The video, which has been widely circulated to fire departments, concludes that while ammunition produces a popping sound when it burns, there is no mass detonation of the ammunition, any projectiles are of low velocity, and there is no threat to firefighters in their standard turn-out gear."

From NFPA:

11-5.1 Small arms primers shall be transported or stored in containers approved by the US Department of Transportation.

11-5.3 No more than 25,000 small arms primers may be transported in a private vehicle.

11-5.5 No more than 10,000 small arms primers may be displayed in commercial establishments.

(a) Quantities not exceeding 750,000 may be stored in a building if not more than 100,000 are stored in any one pile and piles are at least 15 ft (4.6 m) apart.

(b) Quantities exceeding 750,000 may be stored in a building if the following conditions are met:

1. The warehouse or storage room shall not be accessible to unauthorized personnel.

1. Primers shall be stored in cabinets. No more than 200,000 primers shall be stored in any one cabinet.

2. Shelves in cabinets shall have vertical separation of at least 2 ft (0.6 m).

1. Cabinets shall be located against walls of the warehouse or storage room with at least 40 ft (12.2 m) between cabinets.

2. Separation between cabinets may be reduced to 20 ft (6.1 m) if barricades twice the height of the cabinets are attached to the wall, midway between each cabinet. The barricades shall extend at least 10 ft (3 m) outward, shall be firmly attached to the wall, and shall be constructed of 1/4 in. (6.4 mm) boiler plate, 2 in. (51 mm) thick wood, brick or concrete block.

1. Primers shall be separated from materials classified by the US Department of Transportation as flammable liquids, flammable solids, and oxidizing materials by a distance of 25 ft (7.63 m) or by a fire partition having a fire resistance of at least 1 hour.

2. The building shall be protected by an automatic sprinkler system installed according to NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems.

(c) Small arms primers not stored according to (a) or (b) above shall be stored in a magazine meeting the requirements of Chapter 6.

Reprinted with permission from NFPA 495: Explosive Material Code, Copyright ©1992, National Fire Protection Association, Quincy, MA

NOTE:

What other Explosive requires no placarding, no special transportation requirements etc etc?

Yes, primers are the dangerous part of a cartridge in a fire. No one, least of all I, indicated that..but the danger is very small. Id hazard to say that placing river rocks in a bonfire is more dangerous than a handful of ammunition.

I do speak from years of experience in many aspects of this particular subject.

Gunner

"Guns aren't toys. They're for family protection, hunting dangerous or delicious animals, and keeping the King of England out of your face."

-- Krusty the Clown, "The Simpsons"

"Sporting Ammunition and the Firefighter, a video produced by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute, analyzes the characteristics associated with small arms ammunition when it is subjected to severe impact and fire. When a primer ignites, it causes the propellant to burn, which creates gases which, when under pressure in a firearm, send the bullet down the barrel. Pressure created by the propellant being burned is what discharges a bullet. As such, loose ammunition in a fire does not result in bullets being discharged because the propellant is not burning under pressure. The video, which has been widely circulated to fire departments, concludes that while ammunition produces a popping sound when it burns, there is no mass detonation of the ammunition, any projectiles are of low velocity, and there is no threat to firefighters in their standard turn-out gear."

I have burned literally tons of small arms ammunition in my time, and yes, there is a bit of brass tossed out of the fire, but its of rather low velocity. Yep..it might stick in your skin. But I can do the same with a brand new playing card or razor blades, by spinning them at you. Will I stand over a fire pit with burning center fire ammo in it? Hell no. Will I stand within 20 feet of such? Yup. Btdt.

The greatest ammunition danger to firefighters for example, is when a house is burning and there are loaded revolvers or other firearms involved in the fire. When the ammo finally cooks off, it fires from the barrel or cylinder as it would if the trigger was pulled. A round in the barrel fires the bullet with the same energy as normal, and rounds in the cylinder fire from each of the chambers, the one lined up with the barrel, will have significantly more velocity than those cooking off from the non aligned chambers and the one at the bottom lined up with the frame tends to blow the handgun apart, particularly as the weapon is now very hot.

The OP indicated disposing of " a few cartridges" of indeterminate types. I rather doubt that we are discussing 50BMG, or HE or Incendiary rounds.

Small arms ammunition are not WMD, nor are they inherently dangerous. Its a rather safe and proven technology, and disposing of it is not rocket science. Wives tales and emotional fanciful imagination do not change the facts of the matter.

Im rather amused by the poster, whom equated small arms ammunition, with explosives, then went off on a nutroll when I flatly told him differently, in the same fashion he earlier berated me.

Berated me btw..because of his misconceptions and ignorance of the subject. Shrug. Not surprising though, most folks don't know dick about ordnance. But again..I was amused by his vehemence.

Gunner

"Guns aren't toys. They're for family protection, hunting dangerous or delicious animals, and keeping the King of England out of your face."

-- Krusty the Clown, "The Simpsons"

Hey Gunner, Isn't amazing how many people don't know what an "explosive" is ?

...lew...

So, technically Frank was correct - in principle?

It's a poor teacher who steps on the students' toes.

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

No, yes, maybe. If the Feds dont consider ammunition an explosive, but a class C propellent, even when being shipped via UPS...the concern is moot.. Its not uncommon for UPS to deliver "spam cans" of ammo to houses all over this country. One should note..that strike anywear kitchen matches cannot be shipped UPS but only truck freight, to give you some idea of the danger potential..

Shrug.

Gunner

"Guns aren't toys. They're for family protection, hunting dangerous or delicious animals, and keeping the King of England out of your face."

-- Krusty the Clown, "The Simpsons"

Most dont, either common or technical definitions. Shrug

This did piss me off

Cites?

(No cites for the above followed btw)

Which became:

If one smashes a box of rimfires with a BFH..maybe..just maybe it might make one or two of them pop. Put them on an anvil to increase your probabliltiy. Hold one in a vise by the rim and squeeze it flat..might make one pop. Probably will in fact. Wear your face shield.

I would worry more about all those spray paint cans, 1lb propane and MAPP cylinders, hair spray cans etc etc. Those can be bloody dangerous when set on fire.

to which I responded:

Seems some can dish it out..but not take it, if their cherished ignorance is questioned. Shrug..aint no thing. While I dont know much about machining, in the grand scheme of things. My chips are getting closer to proper size lately...this is one subject I do have something of a grasp on.

Shrug

Gunner

"Guns aren't toys. They're for family protection, hunting dangerous or delicious animals, and keeping the King of England out of your face."

-- Krusty the Clown, "The Simpsons"

That was already covered in your 'match' thread of several months ago, and the identification of the ebay seller who was mailing them to his customers, and what would probably happen to him if he were caught doing so.

But as far as I know, most ammo boxes don't come with the instructions "to dispose of unused cartriges, throw in fire."

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

LOL..true. Though Ive yet to read one that says Call EOD or 55D team.

Ill have to look. IIRC most say Dispose of Properly

Gunner

"Guns aren't toys. They're for family protection, hunting dangerous or delicious animals, and keeping the King of England out of your face."

-- Krusty the Clown, "The Simpsons"

Have either of you heard the terms "high explosive" and "low explosive" before??

Discharge into

( ) Democrats ( ) Republicans

Pick one!

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

What about the guy looking to fill in his old swimming pool ...

Two birds with one ... etc.