USR Motors on ROL

NFPA's are not laws. Laws are laws and can incorporate NFPA's by reference.

Are you asking if your state laws say it is illegal to sell non-certified motors? If so, you'll have to specify what state you are in.

Bob

If these motors are not certified can they be flown and were. EX launches?

Bayourat

You can fly them independantly all you want.

Bob

well of course these motors can be flown if you DO NOT live in any of the following states: States that have adopted the IFC which adopts NFPA 1122/1125/1127

Alaska Arkansas Florida Georgia Idaho Indiana Minnesota New Jersey New York North Carolina South Carolina Utah Virginia Washington Wyoming

IF you are a NAR/TRA member you may be in violation of the Safety Codes if you do use these motors anyway.........

In the following states, local jurisdictions (cities,counties,etc) may have adopted some or part of IFC.They may or may not have adopted the NFPA codes independently of the IFC.

Alabama Arizona Colorado Illinois Iowa Kansas Maine Michigan Mississippi Missouri Nebraska Nevada New Hampshire North Dakota Ohio Oklahoma Pennsylvania Tennessee Texas

None of the following states have adopted the IFC but still may have adopted the NFPA codes...

California Connecticut Delaware DC Hawaii Kentucky Louisiana Maryland Massachusetts Montana New Mexico Oregon Rhode Island South Dakota Vermont West Virginia Wisconsin

I know for sure that both California and Kentucky have not adopted any of the NFPA codes, although California does reference a very small part ( a paragraph or 2) regarding NFPA 1122 for their definition of a model rocket...although in California a model rocket may weight up to 500 grams not 454 grams as NFPA 1122 states....But then of course all the NFPA codes allow for this....

now for my RANT..... Can you believe in this day and age, that neither the NAR nor the TRA has an all encompassing lisiting which can tell its membership which states have adopted the NFPA codes and which have not? You would think that after 35 years( this is how long the NFPA codes have existed per rocketry) that they would have an interest in having an uptodate listing on which states has adopted which NFPA code..... the NFPA reps from the NAR are J.Patrick Miller and Bunny, the TRA ones are Bruce Kelly and Scott Bartel....perhaps members of each of the respective organizations would like to contact their respective NFPA reps and ask them to compile and publish this listing for all of us to see and use?

As far as can they be used for TRA EX (?), TRA EX the answer is NO....because commercially manufactured motors are not allowed in TRA EX..

1.1.1 This code shall apply only to non-commercial individuals who make their own rocket motors for their

own use to be used at Tripoli Research Launches.

3.2.6 Experimental Motor. Any non-certified, non-commercial motor, made by individuals for their own

personal, non-commercial use.

And yes these are uncertified motors....

shockie B)

Not at EX launches, as you are not the person who made them.

There are some clubs with their own insurance and/or other policies that preclude them from following the NAR/TRA safety codes at some or all of their launches. That's where you can fly them.

Or, on your own, if you have a site that doesn't require NAR/TRA insurance and you've done the proper FAA paperwork (if the motor and/or rocket requires it).

-Kevin

WRONG.

Where NFPA codes have been adopted by a State, they are considered Laws(ordinances) enforceable by the State Fire Marshall....

shockie B)

I don't think so Shockie

in every state where the IBC or NFPA codes have been adopted, there will be a State law, regulation or rule that derives from that states body of law. The IBC/NFPA codes do not stand apart from that body of law.

- iz

shockwaveriderz wrote:

Ummm.. Shockie? That's exactly what he said...

He stated that the NFPAs (in and of themselves) are not laws. Where a state has MADE a law that INCORPORATES the NFPAs by reference, they can then be enforced by the SFM.

You guys are saying exactly the same thing.

David Erbas-White

david: ohh, ok.....B)

I would say >

what concerns me about this auction is the fact that ROL seems intent on facilitating illegal behavior within our hobby..... I realize that ROL is not a regulatory nor enforcement body, but they should know the laws before allowing these engines to be posted for sale.

Lets assume for example that these motors are made by JI/USR/DPT/ACS or whoever... My questions are this: Does JI/USR/DPT/ACS have a CSFM manufacturers license to make these motors in teh 1st place? Does JI/USR/DPT/ACS have a CSFM importers/exporters license to sell these motors outside the state of California? Does JI/USR/DPT/ACS have a CSFM wholesalers license which allows for the transfer of the motors to the Proxy person that is selling the motors on ROL? This assumes that the person selling these engines bought them at wholesale prices so he can auction them off at higher retail prices and make a profit...

Does the Person(s) bidding on these engines live in a NFPA 1127 compliant state? Do they even know or care? what happens if these motors hurt somebody? Who is responsible? I would say that ROL would be partially responsible for facilitating their illegal sale .......

wonder why the BATFE is on our ASS? this is a perfect example......self-regulation and enforcement does not work and has not worked in this hobby for a long time now....

shockie B(

The reason why auctions are LEGAL is that little loophole in DOT regulations that say that the regs apply to materials transferred "in commerce".

People transferring their colectibles is technically not commerce despite the exchange of value.

DOT has allowed a wide variety of "hazmat" to exchange this way on ebay and many other places because it is in very small quantities (by their standards) and from a variety of locatons and is hard to enforce anyway.

Some vendors like Countdown do alot of "private transactions" as a main activity.

Hope this helps.

I refuse to auction stuff precisely because of your reactionary post by the way Terry.

Jerry

[snip megabytes of madness to arrive at the only answer]

What did NAR say to you when you volunteered to do this?

Glen Overby

Do not buy motors at auction. I don't do it. I don't encourage it. If I did I would be selling 98mm and 152mm motors and buying Cadillacs every year.

And besides if you buy a USR 29mm 120G008 at ROL auction for $32 are you really buying from a straw man?

Jerry

Unless it has changed since late 2000, Georgia did not adopt the IFC relative to 112x. The adopted the 1995 verion of 1122,25, & 27. Search this group for my posting (in 2000) of the annotated ga code.

PhilipD

"before allowing"

Now ROL is an enforcement agency as well. Where does it all end, shockie? Specifically who is NOT responsible for enforcing teh law?

And should ROL know the laws in all 50 states and the counties as well? Because they all vary by locality.

Joe,

Do you know for a fact that the motors sole on ROL will be illegally shipped?

If so, prove it. If not, just shut up.

I suspect the latter.

PhilipD

Just a casual observation, but yes, I do. You're the only one who could unload them that cheap.

Also, note the more than usual motor cert whining you've been doing lately......I think you are using the auctions to raise funds to attempt to certify your motors.

Joe Michel NAR 82797 L1

Phil,

I could ask the same of you Do you know for a fact that the motors sold on ROL will be legally shipped?

Joe Michel NAR 82797 L1