Another View on Certification

despite no legal basis for barr >So what if I live in a non NFPA state where no membership in any >organization is required? or where there is no certification >requirements? I >would assume that a dealer would still not sell a hpr motor to that >person...

Look at it another way: I have an FCC amateur radio license. But you do NOT need a license to PURCHASE a transceiver, and are perfectly legal to use the RX portion without a license. Only when I want to key the mic & transmit do I need the license. An amateur radio license regulates USE, but not COMMERCE, in amateur radio equipment.

Another example: The Academy of Model Aeronautics requires a special waiver to fly turbine powered jets. But there is no regulation on the PURCHASE of turbines. And if you do not join the AMA, then there is really nothing stopping you from both buying & flying turbines. The AMA has no power of enforcement on non-members.

Yet the NAR/TRA certification process places constraints on the PURCHASE of motors even to NON-MEMBERS. This makes them a quasi-governmental regulatory agency, whether they admit it or not. Since this is the result of NFPA 11xx, I believe the NFPA process is seriously flawed & possibly unconstitutional.

Reply to
By-Tor
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No, NFPA codes (and/or state laws in most non-NFPA states) restrict purchase of rocket motors, and always have. NAR/TRA worked to provide an easier way for individuals to engage in rocketry, without having to meet the more stringent requirements of amateur and professional rocketry.

Reply to
RayDunakin

LESS stringent, but LESS consistent rules.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

If this were true, why don't all the vendors voluntarily STOP requiring certification? If what you say is true, there is no legal recourse for NAR/TRA. What retribution/leverage can NAR/TRA have against vendors? They certify motors, not vendors.

Reply to
David

On the face of things it appears they only certify "individuals", but in doing so the "individual" certification is the basis for the dealer to sell HPR ... individuals make up the dealerships....

Lets look at Magnum.... Magnum is located in OHIO......as far as I can tell Ohio is not a NFPA 1/11xx state....I may be wrong.... but lets just assume it isn't....... Ross could decide to sell to both NAR/TRA certifed individuals and non certified individuals alike, if he so desired...BUT.... Lets say Ross is also a NAR/TRA member in this non NFPA state..... Ross is under no Legal obligation as a businessman to sell NAR/TRA certified motors to ONLY NAR/TRA certified people....Because in Ohio, it being a nonNFPA state, the NFPA codes are not law and do not apply.... I suppose Ross does it because it would simply be too much hassle otherwise....

he would have to ask each potential purchaser: are you a NAR/TRA member? Y or N.... do you live in a NFPA state? Y or N.... and of course 99.9% of the people have no idea what NFPA codes are law in their states.....and as I said previously, most business people KNOW the states laws in which they operate.....or they should....

Now lets pretend that Magnum started selling HPR to non certified individuals(non NAR/TRA members) in non NFPA states.....What Magnum is doing is perfectly legal.....how would NAR/TRA react? Well lets just say I think they would do everything in their power to convince Magnum to stop these sales..... I would think that most motor manufacturers place some degree of restrictions on their dealers as to who they can sell what to..? For example, AT requires you have a LEUP to be a dealer? Undergo HAzmat training?

As far as retribution/leverage, I'm not sure what that might entail.... what would be the penalty for selling NAR/TRA certified motors to non certified people in non NFPA states? As long as those states had no specific laws governing certification and purchase/use, it would be legal..... remember that the NFPA codes are law only in NFPA compliant states...

I suppose both NAR/TRA could create a "certified rocketry dealer program", a program in which the dealers volunteer to only sell HPR to NAR/TRA certified members....and in return they get to show the NAR/TRA logo as being "officially approved" by the NAR/TRA..... But of course the reality is much simpler, per NFPA 1127:

3.3.5* Certified User. An individual, a distributor, or a seller who has been tested or otherwise examined by a recognized

organization that is acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and has been found to be qualified to purchase, possess,

and use high power rocket motors.

5.1 Sales Only to Certified Users. A high power rocket motor

or motor reloading kit shall be sold to, shipped to, stored by,and used only by certified users.

So the person doing the selling has to be HPR certified to sell HPR to other HPR certified people.

In other words, the dealer has to be "certified" themselves to sell ro other certified users.

Of course the dealer, "volunteers" his compliance with this rule.

I wonder what would happen if a dealer appeared that sold to non certified users and was not certified them selves? Is this possible?

Would A motor manufacturer 1st require that the dealer(the actual individual) of its HPR products be NAR/TRA certified prior to allowing such

dealer permission to sell HPR products? What if this dealer was in a nonNFPA state where certification has no standing in law? I suppose this could

be part of the "franchise" package, this sales requirement?

4.2 User Certification. Only a certified user shall be permitted to launch a high power rocket. IF only a certified user can launch a HPR, then it follows that only a certified user

could also sell or purchase HPR...

As NFPA 1127 points out above......if you are a NAR/TRA member or if you live in a NFPA state, then you must be certified to sell HPR,purchase HPR,store HPR etc.....

shockie B)

Reply to
shockwaveriderz

He is under STRONG pressure as a "TRA member" to NOT deal with non-TRA markets.

He has received pressure repeatedly.

And have in actual practice.

ATF (notapplicable)

DOT, needed for a large scale commercial shipper like magnum.

TRA pressure to cease or lose membership.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

no legal penalty whatsoever

but TRA would cry that the vendor was putting the hobby at risk by not insuring that the motors were put in capable hands, and on that basis suggest to the manufacturer that they provide motors to that dealer

although it might seem to us a bit counterproductive for a manufacture to limit his distributorship, they may that blackballing one or two vendors wouldn't matter all that much, esp. with good portion of motor sales being over the 'net. There would always be another vendor to take up the slack.

OTOH, if word got out that a manufacturer was blackballing resellers who didn't demand certs, others might be intimidated and fall into line.

I have a big problem with all this 'in excess of the regulations' crap. We should be making things easier for flyers, not harder. IMO TRA takes a very short view of things and I think its going to bite them in the butt.

actually, from what Bob K. reported about membership numbers, it already is.

- iz

Reply to
Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed

This should be in the FAQ.

At the tippy top.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

A good analogy. HPR certification works similarly to HAM certification: the testing is done by the user community.

Well, they sure try hard. No AMA club will let a non member fly at "their" field, even when it is public property. I know this is because of their insurance, but I still don't see how they get away with restricting access to public land.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Reply to
Bob Kaplow

Responses in-line...

I'm still not clear on the kind of pressure. TRA could pressure the manufacturers (by threatening to de-certify their motors or something) but how do they have any control over the dealers?

So that's the only potential penalty - lose TRA membership??? That doesn't seem like a compelling enough reason that ALL the HPR dealers require a LEUP for class B rocket motors.

But that doesn't exist today - so what is holding this whole thing together? Just the overhead of keeping track of NFPA vs. non-NFPA states? You post that regularly yourself...

Reply to
David

On a prefacto analysis, no.

But consider the outcomes from a decade of TRA acts and omiossions.

  1. Aerotech has an "effective" monopoly and has maintained it steadily despite "competitors", "regulations (they co-wrote)", accidents, bankruptcies, investors come and gone to the tune of almost m.

Who has most of the CASH? The ex-wife of course.

turbosnip.

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Are you talking about Your ex wife, jerry?

Reply to
Dave Grayvis

because the the Public land owners (county, twp, city etc) put in writing on the lease to the AMA club that only AMA insured members can fly on their land. easy, simple and does make business sense, correct ?

Art

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Reply to
ArtU

True of all divorces in CA/NV/OR/AZ/WA dude. Almost all.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Is that why you don't pay any child support?

>
Reply to
Dave Grayvis

Iz wizzed:

Ah, so now we know the real reason why Iz hasn't gotten certified for high power now -- it's too hard for him!

Reply to
RayDunakin

Jerry, you are so full of it, you must have brown stuff leaking out of your ears. Aerotech has NO monopoly. Having the largest share of the market is NOT a monopoly (and that share seems to be getting a lot smaller these days). If AT wasn't the biggest, someone else would be. Would you then claim they had a monopoly? If USR was in AT's place, would you still be calling it a monopoly??

Main Entry: mo·nop·o·ly Pronunciation: m&-'nä-p(&-)lE Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -lies Etymology: Latin monopolium, from Greek monopOlion, from mon- + pOlein to sell Date: 1534

1 : exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action 2 : exclusive possession or control 3 : a commodity controlled by one party 4 : one that has a monopoly

Note that word "exclusive" in there? Aerotech is NOT the exclusive manufacturer or supplier of motors. Nor do they have any control over the other manufacturers/suppliers.

Reply to
RayDunakin

Favored treatment WRT certifications.

You do not deny they have a dominant supply chain that resists newcomers very well too.

All of LMR and the vast majority of the HPR installed base.

Economics is full of "trends". If they have an 80% market share are they a "perfect monopoly?" No.

But if more of the above items and descriptions tend to be more accurate than not then AT has a "defined monopoly" or a "substantial monopoly" or a "constructive monopoly".

Technically the industry is a lopsided oligopoly.

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Technically jerry, You ar e a pathalogical lier.

Reply to
Dave Grayvis

Which excludes people with other insurance. And it is PUBLIC land, not the private land owned by the club. It's as if the town 5 miles east of me said that only those insured by Allstate could drive on their streets.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Reply to
Bob Kaplow

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