OT Environmentalists may be in deep Kimchee

But.. there are lots of other "cans" and we gotta have something to shoot at :o). Greg Sefton

Smarter? No. They are dead. Better? No, they are dead. But they could have been dead either way. Least they made their choice and took their chances. The long list of other storekeepers I provided went the other way. Life has no guarentees. You make your choices. Unfortunately..you and your ilk want to remove that choice.

Both are important. They could have been dead either way. The long list of other store keepers made the same choices. The bad guys lost.

Assuming the bad guys left them alive to call the cops etc etc. If they had no choice..they would be slaves.

Yup. When I go, if by violence, I will go with my enemies at my feet as an escort to hell.

Kirk..what makes you think Im afraid of 13yr olds? Im afraid of no man, but there are a whole bunch of folks out there Ill damned sure watch. Tell you what..lets you and me take a walk through Compton or Watts or East LA at 2am on a Friday night, and lets see what your pucker factor is. Ok? Lets see just how unafraid you are. Deal?

Yup.

Yup .

Ok..type on my part..that should be 1,500 per, based on the 2.5 million DGUs that occur in the US every year, compared to the murder (not homicide) numbers.

Both can be used as tools, both can be used as weapons indeed. And yes besides its other uses where no danger is involved, a weapon can and does keep me safe by putting the bad guy in danger. And Im always alert and aware whenever driving..as someone sooner or later will try to kill me, intentionally or not. Dont ride a motorcycle much do you? Gives Paranoia a whole new meaning.

Yup. Interesting spin, but you always were a good wordsmith.

I dont have a swimming pool in my back yard either. Too damned dangerous.

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:06:23 -0500, Kirk Gordon wrote:

This is the kind of world Kirk wants. From one of my English mates, a retired British trooper of some rank..

Robin Baker White is a nice decent law abidding chap, he also used to be the High Sheriff of Kent.

In March 1999 this chaps home was burgled, the Police were sympathetic but failed to find the criminals( this is the norm for the british police whose detection rates run at less than 20 % unless you are a motorist).

Anyway Mr White spent over £3000 on improving the security of his home, but it did not stop the burglars who called again in July 2002. Six men forced their way into the Whites home, YES Six men forced open a window and entered the victims home. So not being a fool he reached for his trusty shotgun and fire two warning shots into the air causing the six pieces of scum to flee. Then he dialled 999 and asked for Police help..............

Yup you guessed it............... Loads of armed cops decendedon the victims home lead by a superintendant, and demanded to know where the gun was. Mr White admitted firing the gun upwards into some cedar trees well above the heads of the six criminals. The Police were not happy they immeadiately went out to search the grounds of Mr Whites home, not as you would believe to try and capture the 6 criminals but to see if anyone had been wounded. Then the cops being typical british cops they took Mr Whites gun away returning a short while later to take away his licence as well. Of course word soon spread that Mr White had been robbed again and had his gun taken of him cos he was silly enough to think his life and the life of his wife was worth protecting from repeat criminals. Guess what?....................... Yup not long after Mr White was watching TV when two men ran into his house and attacked him , smashing him about the face and body before leaving him as a bloody mess on the floor of what should be a safe secure family home. All thanks to the panic striken , knee jerk , hysteria driven rabid idiots of the anti gun lobby who believe the more vulnerable british citizens the safer they are from crime. And of the Police who took his gun away.............Oh they said We are disapointed Mr White is unhappy with the way we have dealt with the burglaries and assaults , but we can assure him the offences have been fully investigated. ROTFLMBO The British police are a politicised useless waste of space led by politically motived fools.

The British Police simply can not grasp the fact that the decent law abidding people do not want thorough investigations with a success rate of less than twenty % , British people need the right to choose how they can defend themselves and their homes from criminals. The Police are given guns to protect themselves against violent criminals ( who as far as I am Aware do not go looking for policemen) so why can not the home owner, shop keeper, district nurse, bus driver, etc be given the same right of choice as to how they can protect themselves. For every victim of a crime who is denied the right to choose if they wish to own a gun for self defence the blame lies firmly not at the feet of the criminals who are simply taking advantage of a situation, but firmly in the hands of the anti gun lobby.

---------------------------------------------

Sigh...makes one wonder if Kirk might not be happier in the UK.

And hey..not all that many back yard swimming pools either. "Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

The usual irrelevant copy & paste followed........

With a population of about 5th the US, and firearms deaths at

80 for last year, Kirk may not be happier, but he certainly would be safer... Tom

Ahhhh, ok. The country where the government can proclaim your area to be "excess personage" and burn the crops and seal the roads until 10 million of you starve to death.

You don't see that happening over here and I think you know why.

ral

Perhaps safer from firearms..but rape, robbery, assault and burglary are higher in the UK than in the US.

Odd how that happens when one takes away the means to defend ones self, no?

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

The pilgims would have been "safer" had they stayed , huh? And the many who have risked life and limb reaching these shores since that time. But, you need to understand that there is a group of people that don't place "safety" at the top of their list. Quite a few of them place "freedom" ot the top. And endure or even enjoy the lower level of safety that just might come with that freedom.

JTMcC, who's priorities place freedom well above any form of state supplied security.

\>

I thought safer from firearms was the question?

Of course throwing in an unsubstantiated statement, could be construed as a failure to defend an earlier unsustainable post...

Certainly, as usual it's BS:

US violent crime: 2002, 23 victims per 1000 persons

UK violent crime: 2000-1, 13.92 victims per 1000 persons Still what's new?

Tom

Interesting..not what Interpol claims:

Here are Interpol 2001 crime statistics (rate per 100,000):

4161 - US 7736 - Germany 6941 - France 9927 - England and Wales

Thus the US has a substantially lower crime rate than the major European countries!

. . .

[The US] murder rate is high largely due to the multicultural nature of our society. Inner city blacks, members of a distinct subculture, have a vastly higher criminal and victim homicide rate than our society as an average:

Homicide Offender Rate/100,000 by Race in US (2000):

3.4 - White 25.8 - Black 3.2 - Other

It is often hypothesized that blacks are overrepresented in murder statistics due to racism on the part of police and the justice system. If this were true, one would expect that the race of victims would have significantly different distribution than the race of the perpetrators, but this is not the case:

Homicide Victim Rate/100,000 by Race in US (2000):

3.3 - White 20.5 - Black 2.7 - Other

Thus if you remove homicides committed by blacks (total: 21862, Blacks:9316), and assume a proportionality between number of offenders and number of offenses, you can extrapolate US homicide offender rate of only 2.6/100,000, lower than Germany (3.27) and France (3.91).

It appears that I was partially incorrect on the rape stats(which continue to rise in the UK, fall in the US) all else in my statments appear to be true from the looks of it.

Now then..you were driveling on about what again? Hummmm? Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

Tom, it isn't that simple, and there's always some argument over crime-rate comparisons. It's very difficult to compare them across countries.

For example, the US violent crime rate you quote above, 23/1000, breaks down into 7.6/1000 "completed" violence and 15.6/1000 "attempted or threatened violence." That's in the actual "Bureau of Justice Statistics National Crime Victimization Survey August 2003, NCJ 199994, Criminal Victimization, 2002," which is the source from which that 23/1000 rate is extracted.

Do you know how the UK records attempted/threatened violence in each category? It appears to be a complicated thing to extract from the data, because attempts are classed as individual types of crimes in some cases and not in others. Whether that means that attempts are lumped together with completions in those other cases, I don't know. You also want to take a careful look at which data are reporting crimes actually reported to the police, and which are estimates of total crime, reported and unreported.

Anyway, be cautious in making those claims.

Oh, BTW, among all crimes of violence in the US, only about 7% of the victims faced an assailant armed with a gun. No guns were involved in 93% of violent crimes committed in the US, in other words.

Ed Huntress

You offered two ANECDOTES of supposed shopkeepers who went for a gun, (three if you count the father). 2 out of what was the number according to the Gov't in 2002? Almost 450,000 DGU a year, out of 6.5 million violent crimes reported.

You offered no evidence of training by the shopkeepers in question. Nor specifics on who they were facing in the robbery. To counter your Anecdotes others were offered to you.

I never claim that DGU is 100%, only that the study that has been done shows that DGU increases likelyhood of not being seriously injured. People can argue the sample size was to small for statistical signifigance, but the Gov't has not done a larger study to tighten the range. Nor has anyone else done so that I am aware of. Certainly DGU is less effective for men than for women In the study I cited.

Never did I claim that DGU was without risk or a panacea. So lets not get all high and mighty about rules of logic and proof in this discussion when you yourself offered no proof and didn't produce anything more than anecdotes that may or may not be time compressed in your mind.

[Tom said]:

[Gunner said]:

Ah, Gunner, no. You need a better class of blogs.

Here's where those figures came from:

If you compare a few countries, you'll see that entire categories are missing from some, and there are big differences in how they report the rest. Interpol doesn't say these are crime comparisons. They say "Total number of offences *contained in national crime statistics*." (emphasis mine)

Tom's figures stink. Your figures stink. Both of you guys need a course in research methodology if you're going to toss statistics around. Meet here on Tuesdays at 7:00 PM.

Oh, I notice that the blogger whose site you grabbed those figures from said he didn't know what the original source was, and that the guy who gave the figures to him couldn't remember or something. It took me all of 15 seconds to find Interpol's statistics page. Those guys you're quoting are incompetent buffoons.

Ed Huntress

What a load of crap! Especially your interpretation of some dubious stats from hardly credible sites! Interpol? Yeah right!

Tom

It's never that simple, it's bad enough putting up with Gunner posting crap without some pedant posting some mealy-mouthed quibble.

Guns? Who was talking about guns? Gunner quoted "rape, robbery, assault and burglary are higher in the UK than in the US." Apart from burglary they constitute violent crime.

If you really want to bring guns into it compare the firearm deaths in the UK with the US and remember dead is dead!

Tom

You're as bad as Gunner, Ed, just full of it!

I'm quite happy for you to provide stats that hold water. Just don't discriminate between attempted crimes and those that reached a satisfactory conclusion for the criminal.

Tom

You and Ed seemed to have missed commenting on the other sites..including that report from the Washington Journal.

Thats a Hardly Credible site? Snicker....

Hint Tommy boy..I made NO interpretation, but provided them as I found them. You do have a reading comprehension problem I take it? Bummer..must suck to be you. Must be that Hate thing you have going on......

Now..hummmm....Ill try another Hardly Credible site..

U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics Publications

Crime and Justice in the United States and in England and Wales,

1981-96 Compares crime in the United States and England with respect to crime rates (as measured both by victimization surveys and police statistics), conviction rates, incarceration rates, and length of sentences. Crime rates as measured in victim surveys are all higher in England than the United States. Crime rates as measured in police statistics are higher in England for half of the measured crime types. A person committing serious crime in the United States is generally more likely than one in England to be caught, convicted, and incarcerated. Incarceration sentences are also generally longer in the United States than England. 9/98. NCJ 169284

Ah..Ed..does this site meet with your approval?

Feel free to browse.....its paid for by the taxpayers....

Now Tommy boy..ah...ahum...you were saying something again?

Snicker........

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

Actually Tommy boy...in the UK, Hot Burglaries..where the home is invaded by the bad guys, with the tenents home..is up also. And Id consider that a violent crime.

And of course, with the cites I provided...robbery, assaults and burglary are up in the UK, considerably greater than in the US. Do check out the United States Department of Justice stats..unless you consider those to be suspect also?? Snicker......

Yup..dead is dead. Going over some figures..I notice that New Zealand has a much higher suicide rate than does the US. Something down there makeing life unbearable? Might want to check in with your mental health professional once in a while..just for a sanity check. Id miss our banter....

I also notice all those nasty guns causing a REALLY high suicide rate in Japan.

And Gosh..look at the homicide rate in Mexico! Much higher than most other countries with the exception of Estonia. Hummmmm Im pretty sure most guns are illegal in Mexico.

Now on the other hand...Switzerland..now there is a hot bed of crime...where virtually every home has a firearm, public shooting ranges are everwhere, many homes have machine guns... Hey..its got a lower homicide rate by any means, firearms or not..less then the UK and NZ... gosh arooony Tommy...I wonder whats going on?

Norway..hummmm even more guns than New Zealand..and a hell of a lot less homicides of any sort, including firearms...whats up with this Tommy?

I wonder..hummm maybe..maybe its the Culture, stupid?

Na... though..I think I did provide something about the number of blacks killing and being killed by blacks..and the other population of the US having a homicide rate about equal to that of the UK, or not much higher....about like NZ actually. Interesting..what with a quarter billion firearms in the US in private hands....seems we should be stepping over bodies right and left. No?

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

yet another chimpanzee joins the crowd, pounding the ground before the sacred obelisk with his favorite thighbone ...

why don't y'all run on over to gunner's house ? you guys could stroke each other's holsters or something ...

oddly enough, I don't see that happening here, either. You and gunner must use the same "sources." Alcoa has a cure for that, I hear. BTW, why is aluminum foil called "tin foil" ?