OT Environmentalists may be in deep Kimchee

Really Carl? So only the five largest cities resemble "a major metro"?

Phx AZ is the sixth largest city in the nation. It is only one of seven large cities in the "major metro", with about a dozen smaller cities... The "major metro" Phx area is larger than several states... That's just your error concerning Arizona... Look closer at the other "open carry states"...

From a casual reading of the California Code I can only conclude that California does not allow open carry, even with a permit, except in counties with less than 200,000 people. Of course, the laws aren't written to be especially clear to the non-lawyer.

Even if the state law does allow open carry, I'm sure it would get one arrested anyway - by jittery police.

-- Robert Sturgeon

There are four types of homicide: felonious, accidental, justifiable,and praiseworthy.

- Ambrose Bierce

[ ... ]

Please *do* post the URLs. Gunner would post the whole web page from each side, not just the URLs. :-)

Enjoy, DoN.

Geeze Ed , I dont even have to leave the US to read that sort of thing. I simply have to read "Earth In the Balance", any Clinton Speech (either him or her), Any commentary from the DNC, all works from the environmentalists, anything from Handgun Control Inc, Sarah Brady's stuff etc etc ad neaseum ad infinitum.

Shrug..It wasnt Goebbels whom perfected this..but the 1990s Liberals in the US.

One of the big differences though..my Ford sig was true. While the others above use Big Lie theory in much of their work.

Its only propaganda when a Conservative uses the same tactics the Left brags about.

Gunner

"[T]he Clinton administration launched an attack on people in Texas because those people were religious nuts with guns. Hell, this country was founded by religious nuts with guns.\ Who does Bill Clinton think stepped ashore on Plymouth Rock? Peace Corps volunteers? Or maybe the people in Texas were attacked because of child abuse. But, if child abuse was the issue, why didn't Janet Reno tear-gas Woody Allen? -- P.J. O'Rourke, speech at the Cato Institute, May 6, 1993

I see much ado, about per hundred thousand deaths, etc etc..but the statement was largely true on the face of it. Shrug..cherry picking is not something unique to the Right...lol..far from it.

If 50% of the states produced 2/3 more homicide than the other 50% armed states do..thats pretty darned good, dont you think?

At the least, it gives the lie to the legend that a legally armed and carrying citizenry will produce a blood bath.

Gunner

"[T]he Clinton administration launched an attack on people in Texas because those people were religious nuts with guns. Hell, this country was founded by religious nuts with guns.\ Who does Bill Clinton think stepped ashore on Plymouth Rock? Peace Corps volunteers? Or maybe the people in Texas were attacked because of child abuse. But, if child abuse was the issue, why didn't Janet Reno tear-gas Woody Allen? -- P.J. O'Rourke, speech at the Cato Institute, May 6, 1993

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:48:14 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@mindspring.com (Richard Lewis) wrote something ......and in reply I say!:

errr. I think Ed talked of looking at _populations_ and murders. It's people that do the murders, not states...more people more murders.

It is interesting though that the murder rate appears not to be higher per capita in the freer states.

**************************************************** sorry remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Imagine a _world_ where Nature's lights are obscured by man's. There would be nowhere to go. Or wait a while. Then you won't have to imagine.

Oh, now that's original. Talk about intelligent comebacks there. You and Ed don't really surprise me.

Fact is, Gunner's quote was proven true as it is written and you and Ed both said it wasn't.

Be a real man and simply admit that you were wrong and stop the Peewee Herman arguments, bro.

I'm not skewing anything to prove anything. I have no stake in the argument so I don't have to do anything beyond look at it at face value.

The quote was "able to purchase, strap on a gun, walk down a street with it with no permit of any kind required"....and I provided nothing but the laws pertaining to "purchasing/open carrying" the firearm in question.

I don't need to provide the numbers of murders in the other states because providing one or the other allows *you* to simply subtract.

The numbers quoted were from

and yes, they are accurate because they are identical to at least two others....I chose that site because they are simply formatted in an easy to use manner.

So? Was that quoted in the original quote?

My data proves Gunner's quote and proves that you and Ed were/are simply wasting my bandwidth with bullshit.

Really? I see millions of them a year. They're the ones who own the firearms that don't end up in statistics and bullshit arguments with idiots.

You tell me.

ral

Why would they be higher? An armed society is a polite society. At least in the US. Historically.

Gunner

"No man shall be debarred the use of arms. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants. They ought to be designated as laws not preventative but fearful of crimes, produced by the tumultuous impression of a few isolated facts, and not by thoughtful consideration of the inconveniences and advantages of a universal decree." - Thomas Jefferson

No, Ed, Carl, and Jim accused Gunner of using a lying quote and tried to prove it by re-interpreting it however they wished. The quote was, in fact, true and it was Ed, Carl, and Jim who were "lying or fools and probably a bit of both".

ral

I found the first easily, but the second is a bit obscure.

I would appreciate the links, also.

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

More or less what we have here. I think you have a point on must versus may. In Mass the local cheif is the authority, some won't give out a carry permit. I think that is wrong.

I disagree. Without the rules we have here, we would not know if you are a felon or not, are taking anti psychotics etc. With no permit requirements, we just don't know. If a cop pulls over a guywith a car full of guns, how is he supposed to know he's a felon or not. Gun permit would come in pretty handy about then. I live in a safer state than most non permitting states,. and if you lived here, you would be safer, and could have all the guns you want. I think that is a pretty good deal.

When I sit in my best friends living room drinking a beer, my feet rest on a metal locker full of guns and ammo, locked and way too heavy to drag anywhere. I think he keeps too much ammo for safety, but that is just my opinion. Just the fire issue, not the having of it.

Oh, and if David Koresh is your hero, you aint as smart as you sound

Gunner, Looks familiar but I am not certain this is the exact article. The story, however, is identical and that was the issue. The thing that originally caught my attention was the "unusual moment of candor comment" in what I read. Why should it be "unusual" for the CDC to be candid with the public? WTF is THAT all about!

"People who want to share their religious or political views with you almost never want you to share yours with them." - unknown

John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco Portland

Ah, Richard, I haven't had time to respond to your earlier message, but I will, and you'd be wise, I think, to avoid getting too cocky about it. You were wrong that D.C. wasn't in the proper place in the tallies I gave, and you've been more than a bit selective in the way you chose your states. Yes, I have documentation.

So chill a bit while I get some work done, and we can take this up. Meantime, be ready with your sources of information, eh?

Ed Huntress

Sure you would know. If you attempted to purchase a firearm via any legal source, you would not pass the InstaCheck or any other of the mandated checks, so would not be able to purchase one legaly. As to the other sources..you will never be able to stop that. See the War on Drugs.

All felons are in the NCIC data base. Simply running the guys DL# will show if he is a felon or not. If he is a felon any posession of a firearm is unlawrful.

Which gun permit are you refering to? CCW or permit to own? In most states, you dont need a permit to own or even perchase. You walk into a gun store, pay the money, they run your id through a computer, in 5 min or less the FBI gives a go or no go. You pay your money, and leave with it. Other states have up to a 10 day waiting period before you take it home. Few states have a permit to purchase.

And there are others whom live in much safer states, with open carry, shall issue ccw, no permits etc. Looks like its largely dependant on the make up of the population, no?

Ammo is pretty safe in a fire .

Koresh was a nutball, whom was executed along with 80 odd men women and children for the sake of making political brownie points and increased funding, over a tax issue. If you are not aware of that..you aint as smart as you sound.

Gunner

"No man shall be debarred the use of arms. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants. They ought to be designated as laws not preventative but fearful of crimes, produced by the tumultuous impression of a few isolated facts, and not by thoughtful consideration of the inconveniences and advantages of a universal decree." - Thomas Jefferson

How about the concealed carry laws that have been passed & the murder rares went down in those states :o)? Florida is one. Of course both sides will put their spin on it but it's a "fact". Greg Sefton

None of the irrational gun laws in the US makes me happy. Sorting out fact from fiction makes me happy.

As for guns, I know better than to get into one of these gunfights, but I was bored this weekend, and made the foolish move of reacting to one of Gunner's more egregious taglines.

And you may be interested that I was an unpaid lobbyist in NJ over a decade ago, on behalf of the NJ affiliate of the NRA, fighting against our truly brainless "assault rifle" laws.

So don't make the mistake of thinking I'm an advocate fighting for tougher gun laws. FWIW, I happen to like the background checks. I also happen to like freer concealed carry, although not, for example, in courtrooms. Open carry is a throwback to a time that never was, but if the gun nutz enjoy having that thing hanging down there, and if they're not criminals or nuts, it's no big deal to me. I've carried a pistol open while hunting in Michigan (resident), Pennsylvania (non-resident) and Arizona (non-resident), and it never freaked anybody out when I walked into a diner with the thing, so there are some places where it fits without trouble.

Just gimme the facts. We can make good decisions with accurate facts. Playing games with statistics, like "Andrew Ford" did, and like we see going on now in this thread, does not lead to good decisions.

Ed Huntress

The CDC had been pushing very loaded attempts of gun control, per the Clinton Administration over the past 15 or so years. They cherry picked their data and passed it on as Truth, and were caught at it. So the next study was done with an honest attempt to get to the heart of the matter..and came up with the new data..hence the Candor part..they had been caught with their pants down in the middle of a lie and admitted it.

Gunner

"No man shall be debarred the use of arms. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants. They ought to be designated as laws not preventative but fearful of crimes, produced by the tumultuous impression of a few isolated facts, and not by thoughtful consideration of the inconveniences and advantages of a universal decree." - Thomas Jefferson

Take all the time you want, Ed. I'll keep on responding to your other posts that you *do* seem to have the time for. I'm retired....I have lots of free time and I love a good "discussion".

I think what's his name earlier accused me of being "selective" on my numbers....but considering that I cited absolutely nothing but what Gunner's quote said and what you three had accused him of lying about....

See, you lot always do that while you loudly bemoan the fact that others might do the same. You call an easily proven quote "a lie" and then you re-interpret it to say exactly what *you* want it to say. See your earliest posts in this thread for examples.

In this case, you quoted only what *you* defined as "open carry states" while totally ignoring half of the quote in question ie "able to purchase, strap on, and carry without a permit of any kind" etc. You then went off on some meaningless tangent about "per capita" and populations etc that had no basis in the original discussion....but you did oh so easily try to change the topic.

The topic was and is Gunner's quote....you called him a liar for it. Feel free to disprove his quote and prove your point. I believe I proved mine.

You're saying you doubt my numbers or you doubt the actual laws mentioned? The murder numbers are available in multiple places....I found three and I believe I cited the one I used earlier. The laws mentioned are from the NRA-ILA site.

Feel free to disprove either.

ral