OT: General Opinions (?)

My personal experience and opinion based on direct experience reading newsgroups is that this just won't happen. Anyhow, axe grinding and tool sharpening in general are perfectly legitimate topics for the newsgroup, what have you got against them?

In today's paper: "Technical glitches also dogged FirstEnergy in January when [computers] were brought down by [slammer]". Or see

which says, "The Slammer worm penetrated a private computer network at Ohio's Davis-Besse nuclear power plant in January and disabled a safety monitoring system for nearly five hours". (Personally, I think it's a bad choice to use MSWindows systems where anything depends on the system.)

-jiw

No web site references or quotes? But what would gunner do??

Jim

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jim rozen wrote: a suggestion about OT posts. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Jim, I enjoy an occasional OT post which has obvious interest to the people in the group, or an on-topic thread which wanders off topic, being fed by ideas in which the group is obviously interested--otherwise the thread would come to an end.

But, there are thousands of newsgroups, on subjects of every possible type--the reason those groups exist is that those people are interested in their subject matter. I would rather not have to wade through large volumes of various opinions, even if they ARE based on personal experience. My 3 cents worth.

Actually, the thread was started by Loren Coe. Jim was responding to Loren (instead of fixing the Toyota).

-Carl

LOL.

The problem has not re-occured with that car, since I last posted the req. for suggestions here. It has been driven all around here, and on some fairly long journeys on limited access highways, at night. Typically a surefire way to get problems to happen.

The *only* thing I've done to it (aside from instrumenting the cat conv. pressure, and the fuel pump pressure) is to put a container of Techron fuel additive in on each tank fillup. With the idea that this might help de-carbon the intake tract. I know snake oil rarely works but I did the 'magic possum dance' each time during the dosage.

Also it's been screaming hot here which would tend to thin the oil, so if it really was the oil pressure relief valve getting stuck shut, that would be less likely to happen. I may fill it with 0W30 mobil one for the next (winter) oilchange.

Jim

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err, thanks Jim, you just _hi_jacked_ my very first attempt.

damn Usenet, i hate it, hate it, hate... well maybe not.

--Loren

Damn, some guy in a Toyota just hi-jacked this thread(!)....

Techron is GREAT stuff and will not harm the lube oil. I missed the original post - what was the problem with Jim's Toyota? What model?

Former Toyota wrench.

Is that the 3S engine with the IIA ignition? IIRC there was a problem with the "ignitor" in the distributor that could cause the engine to quit in a similar manner

Techron is mainly Stoddard solvent (just like the stuff in the parts washer tank) and it wouldn't be out of the question to have some oil dilution.

I suggested that the ignitor might be failing (Honda had a huge problem with them). Trouble is that there is no way to test it- the car restarts right away so checking for spark isn't an option. Jim doesn't want to Easter Egg the problem, prefering a logical approach. His testing sort of points to carbon buildup on the valves, which the Stoddard solvent may have reduced.

-Carl

Yes. Here IIA stands for "integrated ignition assembly" where they put the ignitor module and coil up underneath the distributor cap. Yes there was a recall, to the best of my knowledge the retrofit has never been done on that car.

So a timing light test during failure would be a great way of ruling out the problem. I've never seen an electronic ignition failure that goes out gradually, and comes back instantly, but then this has me stumped.

So if the car ever starts quitting again in use, that will probably be the first "JOBD" test to try. "Jim On Board Diagnostic" that is.

Jim

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I thought the stoddard solvent ("petroleum distillate" on the container) was there only as a carrier for the active ingredients, some kind of amine compound?

Easter egg? Never heard that one. Checking for spark while under way is in the plan, though. The idea would be clamp the timing light pickup on a plug wire, and route the lead into the passenger compartment. Drive around and charge up some hills, while the trusty passenger holds down the timing light trigger. "Is it still flashing??"

Jim

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Techron is a whole lot more than Stoddard Solvent, and even stoddard solvent mixed 10 oz to 16 gallons will burn completely in the combustion shamber.

In over 30 years I have NEVER seen valve carbon cause an engine to loose power and quit at WOT. It will cause rough idle. It will cause pinging. It will cause severe engine knock.

I would be much more inclined to believe the car has partially plugged filter screans in the injectors, restricting fuel flow to the engine. This would not affect fuel pressure. Running Techron would improve it.

Easy way to check if it is fuel or spark is to check the plugs when it stops, before restarting. If wet or dark, suspect bad spark If white or semi glazed, suspect the engine is going lean - an indication of injection problems.

Has fuel pressure been checked while under load/during failure??. A bad fuel filter could cause the same symptoms, and would ohly show up on the pressure tester when the problem actually occurred.

Fuel injection cleaner is like cheap whiskey- a lot of rotgut mixed with a little good stuff. It's mostly Stoddard solvent (look at a MSDS) or other distillate. Nothing ever burns completely. In any event, if you live where fuel quality is an issue, why not key using cleaner right before an oil change?

I should have pointed out the the carbon buildup was Jim's theory, but I have seen carbon deposits build up enough to prevent an intake valve from closing- the owner accidentally added diesel to the fuel tank (which is why you should never use a gas can to store diesel). It was an expensive mistake.

-Carl

Actually, the blugged injector screens would cause that exact symptom, as the engine leaned out. Lean misfire is VERY noticeable.

Pumpoed up valves would not start smoothly seconds later. You would have a misfire on restart. A stuck valve would do the same. Reastricted injector flow would still allow the pressure to come back up immediately, so the engine would start and run fine on immediate restart, and starve out when fuel demand exceded supply.

AKA the Shotgun Approach. Toss a bunch of stuff at it and hopefuly one of them fixes it.

Gunner

"The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know." -- P.J O'Rourke (1989)

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The power delivery during the failure is still extremely smooth. There's no obvious misfire, no backfiring, etc that I would expect with a lean misfire. The most obvious presenting symptom is, 'hey, my foots on the floor and I'm still slowing down!'

I think one idea that I had read about implied that as soon as the oil pressure dropped to zero the hydraulic valve lifters would reset, and then it would run. That oil pressure idea begs for another gage fitup.

Yep. If it was a fuel thing I would not expect it to be mechanical, like all of the injector screens (do they have screens? I have perused the shop manual for that car, and the only thing I can find that can plug is the fuel filter or the indivual injectors themselves. It's obviously not the filter because there's pressure at the rail. And it would have to be *all* the injectors clogging at once, which to me seems unlikely) .

If it's fuel, I would think maybe the pulse that fires the injector, which comes from the EFI computer, would be simply going away. For that I would use the portable scope to watch it during the failure event.

Jim

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Ah, now *that* I know! Ms mulligan said (at one point) "why don't you just take the darn car to a mechanic!?"

Whereupon we had a discussion about 'the shotgun technique.' And about how much it would cost to do that, and the estimated chance for success.

By now they would have replaced: EFI computer, distributor, coil, igniter, fuel pump, fuel filter, injectors, etc, etc, etc.

I would have a $5000 free car by then. And it would still show the same problem, I bet.

Jim

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Not unlikely at all. I have seen it happen on 3c engines. There ARE screens in the inlet of the injectors.

Pulse going away makes for a dead stop, not a loss of power, and no gurgle.

P.S. - I was a Toyota Service manager when the 3C engine came on the market.