OT-History Lessons



I think you can look through the archives for quite a while without finding much criticism from me in re your machine tool knowledge. I'll admit that I don't think Fanuc controls are worth a shit and I sort of prefer American machine tools to Jap crap, but hey, other than that ...

Yes. When you got a whole flock of sheep getting into the death camas it does take a lot of barking.

I noticed. That's why you sheepsies were all gung-ho that California deserved its energy problems because we didn't build new power plants. Enron couldn't have been responsible in any way, oh no. And then the Great American Free Market routine, just before eleventy-seven major multi-nationals turn out to have been cooking the books, BIG-time. And oh yes, just a few short months ago y'all were regurgitating the pap that Bush, Ashcroft, Cheney, et al were force-feeding you. When you insist on being SO god-damned conventional there IS a lot of barking to be done. Not that it seems to help cuz y'all simply forget whatever stupid Reader's Digest crap you were spouting yesterday in your best schoolmarm manner in order to substitute whatever comes off the UP wire today. I thought people were supposed to *learn* from their mistakes.
But I guess it is kinda comforting to know that no matter what, at least one old biddy will give us the long-winded white picket fence version of reality. No matter what happens, it was all for the best, right ? "Daddy knows best, stop your barking now, you just go lie down now and be quiet and it'll all be fine in the morning, you'll see ... " pfffft.
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I think you can look through the archives for quite a while without finding much support from me for Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, the crooks at Enron, or the fools who sold California to the energy brokers.
A good sheep dog barks at the right times, and for the right reasons. If it barks constantly, then the sheep will learn not to pay attention.
KG
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The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.
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Excellent post, Kirk. Thanks for the history lesson
|wrote: | || I'll probably get flamed from every direction for this, but... || || There is no reason to expect that democracy (or any other kind of ||security or freedom) will EVER happen in the Middle East. In fact, the ||odds are stacked seriously against that. If, for the purposes of this ||discussion, we define democracy (and freedom, liberty, etc.) as an ||official (and at least partially real) recognition that the state ||belongs to its citizens, instead of the other way around, then I can ||think of exactly ONE time in all of human history where that idea has ||taken root and grown successfully. || || The Magna Carta was the seed from which EVERY existing human culture ||that might be called democratic, or based in any way on individual ||rights, has grown. Prior to 1215, every human culture of significant ||size or influence that had ever existed was based in some way on the ||unconditional rule of individulas from just three special classes: 1. ||Warlords, who gained and maintained possession and/or control of land ||and populations by force. 2. Monarchs, who inherited and maintained ||possession and/or control of land and populations by heredity (usually ||passed down from from someone who started his dynasty as a warlord). ||And 3. Religious rulers, who mainained possession and/or control of land ||and populations through a belief that they had some special divinity, or ||access to a diety, which empowered them in ways not possible for mere ||mortals. The modern world has also added a fourth category: "Popular ||Rulers", as in communist cultures, who gain and maintain possession ||and/or control of land and populations in the same way as religious ||rulers, but who claim that their special status and capactiy to rule ||comes from dieties they called "The Proletariate" or "The Masses" or ||"The Will of the People", rather than from conventional gods. || || And, except for the cultures which have descended from 13th century ||England, or those few which have successfuly emulated English-style ||liberty, there are no free cultures in the world today, that I can think of. || || It's true that other attempts have been made, and that other times ||and places have produced the beginnings of democracy; but none of those ||survived or succeeeded. I'm thinking of ancient Greece, with its ||relative freedom of thought and expression, which provided the ||environment occupied by Socrates, Aristotle, Euclid, Pythagoras, etc. ||For the members of the "empowered classes", Greece was a pretty good ||place to live. But it was also the center of an empire, conquered and ||ruled by a warlord; and its freedoms were reserved exclusively for the ||empowered classes, and not to the majority of its population, who were ||slaves and subjugates. || || Rome had a senate, and the beginnings of a parlaimentary government; ||but that too was only for the priviliged few, and served mostly as a ||means to rule an empire of force. By the time Rome had reached the end ||of its lifetime, there were more slaves in Rome than there were Romans. || || And, of course, neither Greece nor Italy is exactly a world power today. || || England and it's philosophical descendants, however, represent a ||unique and relatively long-lived departure from the norm. The US, ||Canada, Australia, and other parts of what used to be the British ||Empire, all enjoy relative freedom, and relatively high standards of ||living, and security, and overall prosperity, compared to the rest of ||the world. Nations like Fance, Germany, Japan, and even, to some ||extent, Mexico, are examples of nations that had no long or continuous ||history of developing freedom; but which abandoned their pasts and ||embraced the English model when major upheavals (usually wars) created a ||discontiuity in their histories, and provided the opportunity to change ||course. It's no accident that parlaimentary style governments exist in ||so many different places, and despite so many different histories. When ||a culture needs or wants to bury its tyrants and try something new, ||there is really only one successful model to borrow from the entire ||history of humankind. || || This idea has two important implications in the Middle East, I ||think. First, places like Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palistine, etc., ||have no history or tradition of even THINKING in ways that are ||consistent with freedom or democracy of any kind. They aren't ||accustomed to thinking in terms of individual rights that aren't ||routinely compromised by violence, religious law, or both. And, they ||can't BECOME accustomed to that kind of thinking in any short time ||period. It's taken dozens of generations for English-style freedom to ||become the norm in those parts of the world that use it. The Mid-East ||is not going to make a spontaneous transformation in any less time. In ||fact, given the general animosity of the Islamic world for the West, ||it's likely to take LONGER that it did in English-descended cultures. || || And, there seems to be no hope for any serious discontinuity that ||will offer the Mid East an opportunity for sudden change. Even today, ||when Iraq has been invaded and conquered by Western powers, the ||conquering armies are taking special pains NOT to disrupt the existing ||culture. We're unwilling to demand or expct that Iraquis, or Afghanis, ||or whoever, abandon the traditions that guide their lives, their ||thinking, and their view of the world; but we still hope they'll find a ||way to integrate democracy into some of the most non-democratic ||ideologies imaginable. If you think that "seamless hybrids" are tough ||to do in a computer, just try doing them in a whole country, or in an ||entire region of the world where non-democratic culture has roots that ||go back THOUSANDS of years! || || (It's worth noting that the Code of Hamurabi is probably the very ||first and most important example of working formal law, and of limits of ||any kind on rulers and their friends. But that code, and the principles ||it represented, were long ago abandoned and forgotten in the Mid East, ||and have been replaced by Islamic law, and by combinations of religious ||rulers and warlords. || || If the Islamic world doesn't grow democratic ideas on its own (and ||it shows no indication that it can, or that it wants to), or if the ||traditions and momentum of thousands of years aren't brought to a sudden ||(and probably violent) end, and replaced at gunpoint by something else ||(as with the end of Imperial Japan, or of the Kaiser's Germany), then ||the probability that democracy ever CAN take root in the Mid East is ||essentially nill. Western leaders who imagine that deposing a single ||ruler, or removing a single government, or offering bribes and favors ||even to millions of civilians, will change the fundamental characters of ||some of the oldest civilizations on Earth, and will do so in less than a ||thousand years or so, are completely clueless. || || We're supposed to be engaged in something called "nation building"; ||but anyone who's ever done ANY kind of successful building will tell you ||that you CAN'T build on the site of existing stuff unless you're willing ||to do some serious demolition first. I'm not advocating demolition. I ||don't claim that it's our job or our business to tell the folks in the ||Middle East how to run their countries. But if we're going to tell ||them, and if we're really going to build new nations, then we need to be ||honest with everyone, including ourselves, about the fact that buldozers ||and excavators always come first, before the carpenters and bricklayers ||can even pretend to start work. || ||KG
Rex in Fort Worth
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snipped-for-privacy@REMOVEtxol.net (Rex B) wrote in message

No it wasn't. It was a simplistic crock of shit from someone who gets his history by reading the Reader's Digest Condensed and expurgated-by-fascist versions of history.
The Magna Carta didn't have SHIT to do with democracy. England and all of Europe were feudal at the time. There wasn't any one king with supreme power, but many many kings and lots of jockeying for position. John was in the process of condensing power into a stronger central govbernment and the barons didn't like that. The magna carta had nothing to do with any "people's rights" but everything to do with powerful individuals wanting to resist a stronger central government. Think American Civil War. Nor was John the villain idiots such as Kirk make him out to be. Somebody should read history once in a while rather than the pap they spoonfeed self-righteous rightwing dorks here :-(
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Not to pile on, but that's exactly right. It's a fairy tale written by children's history-text writers with an overdeveloped need to show patterns of historical development. The problem they have with democracy is that it had about a 2000-year gap, and it was a bunch of cranky reprobates who resurrected it. How do you explain to kids that the early re-stirrings of democracy in England were made by people who promoted the divine right of kings? It's too complicated for a public-school education. I'm sure glad I didn't pay attention when I got mine. d8-)
Ed Huntress
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"Robert Sturgeon" < snipped-for-privacy@inreach.com> wrote in message
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Peter Reilley wrote:
[deletia fore and aft]

Does "foreign" only count when the West is involved? Offhand, I can't think of any period in history in which parts of the Middle East have NOT been under some sort of "foreign" domination.

On the other hand, perhaps the majority of the folks in the Middle East need to "reform" certain aspects of their own culture (ignorance, superstition, slavery, subjugation of women, etc.) before calling for the "reform" of their Jewish neighbors.
As to defeating Israel militarily, it won't happen. As badly as it must discombobulate the Arabs and their apologists, the Jews are in the Middle East to stay.
--
Tom Stovall, CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
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Kirk Gordon wrote:

Not from this direction.
In addition to what you say, how many OLD countries have become wealthy and powerful without some sort of external intervention? Usually the sort of intervention that levels the preexisting social structure and replaces it with something new.
Pre and post WWII Japan being an example.
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Robert Sturgeon wrote:

For some of it's citizens. Even so, it's better than most of the middle east.
Other than that, welcome to the loony world of Brainwashed Petey Reilley...
Brainwashed Petey claims it is "heroic" to deliberately murder large groups of random civilian human beings, but only IF you claim it was done because you suspected they might be members of the WRONG middle eastern superstition...
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Gary wrote:

Gary:
    Do you really believe repeating a lie often enough will somehow turn it into a fact?
    How soon we forget. Here is a post from just a couple of months ago.
====================================================From: BottleBob ( snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net) Subject: Re: OT-History Lessons Newsgroups: alt.machines.cnc Date: 2003-11-23 16:06:47 PST
Gary wrote:

Gary:
OK.
===================================================From: Gary ( snipped-for-privacy@qwest.net) Subject: Re: Alaska Residents- A question Newsgroups: alt.machines.cnc Date: 2003-09-07 13:45:54 PST
You've claimed it's heroic to murder innocent people at random because they are jewish. ===================================================From: Gary ( snipped-for-privacy@qwest.net) Subject: Re: been kinda quiet ... Newsgroups: alt.machines.cnc Date: 2003-04-18 14:54:04 PST
Petey claims it is "heroic" to bomb children on a school bus... ===================================================From: Gary ( snipped-for-privacy@qwest.net) Subject: Re: OT- A Speech Newsgroups: alt.machines.cnc Date: 2003-03-29 22:16:53 PST
Petey is clearly claiming that it's not only acceptable to blow up children on a school bus, he even claims the actions are "heroic". =================================================== And some 44 others of a similar nature.
But there is not the SLIGHTEST indication in Google that Pete claimed what you have attributed to him. In fact it appears to be a total fabrication on YOUR part, made with the intention to deceive others.

Pete seems to have NEVER made any such claim, and neither have I. This seems to be something created in your own imagination. Otherwise you would long ago have produced Pete's alleged comment to that effect. But you can't, since it doesn't seem to exist.

The Palestinian "struggle" takes many forms, not just the despicable action of indiscriminate suicide bombings.
I think you owe Pete AND this newsgroup an apology for trying to intentionally deceive others about what Pete actually said. It appears you have let your emotions trump good judgment, personal integrity, and honesty here. ==============================================    Back to real time here. So, can you back up your claim of what Pete said? Or should we just write this off to another one of your self-serving fabrications and an attempt to ridicule others into silence for posting opinions/beliefs that you don't approve of?     
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BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
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wrote:

You're sort of skipping the bit about how the monarchy that was restored, after Cromwell, was overthrown again, and a figurehead king installed, under terms that put all real power into the hands of Parliament.
--
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he
is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe and not
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wrote:

Yes of course, the power of governance was slipping from the monarchy to the parliament starting from the time of the Magna Carta. The process is largely, but not entirely, complete today. The process did have it's ups and downs but the trend continued.
I suspect that we are actually agreeing here even though our terminology is different.
Pete.
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For whom? Can a religion and one ethnic group BE a "democracy"?
How long since the last marble checkup?
--
Cliff

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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (Cliff Huprich) wrote in message

Israeli Arabs enjoy full rights in Israel. Israel as a soverign state has the right to decide it doesn't want the Palestinians to become its citizens.
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On 23 Jan 2004 07:37:03 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Quant) wrote:

Yes, it does. Israel is not "a religion and one ethnic group."
-- Robert Sturgeon, proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
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Palestinians in Israel do not have full rights.
* Jews have the "right of return" Palestinians do not.
* Jews have the right to buy property anywhere in Israel, Israeli Arabs do not.
* Just recently Israel ended another right. Previously, if an Israeli Arab married a non-Israeli Arab, the non-Israeli Arab could live in Israel. No longer.
* Who can gain Israeli citizenship is determined by religious authorities. No Arab need apply.
There are many others. Remember that Israelis keep telling us that Israel is a Jewish state. Consider what that means if you don't meet that criterion.
Pete.
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Do I hear anyone muttering "murderous fundie loons" in the background ?
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On 24 Jan 2004 03:33:26 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@pacbell.net (Excitable Boy) wrote:

Where is Gary???
LOL
Mike
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You have to differentiate between Palestinians and Israeli Arabs.
Israeli Arabs have full rights. If you don't agree to that statement, I challenge you to bring even _one_ prove to any discrimination against them. I will easily disprove any discrimination claim of yours.
Palestinians on the other hand - shouldn't get more rights than any other non-Israeli citizen. In fact, since they are residents of a terrorist entity which opened a terror war against Israel, Israel should be more careful about them than an average Chinese or a Thai citizen.

Non-Jewish Americans also don't have the right to make Aliyah to Israel.
This is not a discrimination against Israeli citizens. This is a discrimination against non-Israeli citiznes. The US is also doing this discrimination toward Iranian citizens for example (It's harder to get a visa to the US when you are citizen of Iran, its easier when you are a citizen of Sweden for example). Israel as a soverign country has the right to set its immigration policies based on the nationality of the immigrant. Any Jews, part of the Jewish nation is favored, because the goal for which Israel was created was to build a homeland for Jews.
Automatic immigration into Israel is not part of the right the Palestinians are entitled to according to any international norm or law.

This is a lie. Any Israeli Arab, and even any non-Israeli citizen has the right to buy property in any place in Israel in which such a property is proposed for sale. Rare exceptions could be made - for example in tenders for a sale of a production plant for military equipment. In these rare exceptins - non-Israelis could be discriminated, but Israeli Arab would not be discrimnated only because of their Arab identity.

This is another lie. Palestinians are not entitled to automatic Israeli citizenship even when they are marrying an Israeli citizen. It is not important whether the Israeli citizen they are marrying to is an Arab, a Jew or a member of the Bahai faith.
This regulation is valid for the spouses of all of the citizens of Israel, regarding their race, gender, ethnicity or nationality. There is no discrimination against Israeli citizens here.

This is the third lie I noticed you posted since the beginning of the last post of yours.
Israeli citizenship is granted only by the interior ministry and is not determined by any religious authorities. For a non-Jew, the procedures of getting an Israeli citizenship are not dependent in the ethnicity of the applicant. An Italian American and an Arab American will have to pass exactly the same procedure. In case of Jewish immigrants, the interior ministry is sometimes consulting the Chief Rabbis, but this is irrelevant for Arab applicants.

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That is an easy one; the right of return.
Any Jew anywhere in the world can go to Israel and get immediate citizenship. This is a right reserved for Jews. No Palestinians need apply.

Then we agree that Israel is a racist state?
If America limited immigration to only white people then we would be a racist state.

Arabs
Do a Google search on; "Palestinian" "buying property" "Israel". There will be hundreds of articles on that issue.
You are probably not aware that Israeli Arabs do not serve in the IDF. An Israeli would explain this as a favor to the Israeli Arabs, i.e. not forcing them into sometimes "unpleasant" work. Jewish Israeli's are forced to serve in the IDF. Care to speculate on the reason for this discrepancy?

Israeli
I am talking Israeli Arabs here. This is a right that they had until just a month ago.

authorities.
That is the point that I am making. If you are a Jew you get immediate citizenship. The definition of who is a Jew is determined by religious authorities.
You are probably not aware of the rules on losing Israeli citizenship. If you are an Arab Israeli and leave Israel for 6 months you lose your citizenship. If you are a Jew you never lose it no matter how long you are gone.

Israel
You choose to not respond to this last point. Israel is a country that does not want the Palestinians around. It is doing everything to drive them from their home using methods both subtle and violent.
The goal of Zionism is ethnic purity in Israel. They believe that God gives them this right. They believe that since God gave them that right he also excused them from other rules that might be inconvenient such as the commandments against murder and stealing. What we see today is am Israel formed by those beliefs. This Israel is racist thug of a country who believes that God is smiling on them.
Pete.
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