OT-History Lessons

A person I consider a something of a Lefty emailed me this...oddly enough. " Read it and weep - how not to fight a war! Lets remember this during the next couple years. In a recent interview published in The Wall Street Journal, former Colonel Bui Tin who served on the general staff of the North Vietnamese Army and received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30,1975, confirmed the American Tet

1968 military victory: "Our loses were staggering and a complete surprise. Giap later told me that Tet had been a military defeat, though we had gained the planned political advantages when Johnson agreed to negotiate and did not run for reelection. The second and third waves in May and September were, in retrospect, mistakes. Our forces in the South were nearly wiped out by all the fighting in 1968. It took us until 1971 to reestablish our presence, but we had to use North Vietnamese troops as local guerrillas. If the American forces had not begun! to withdraw under Nixon in 1969, they could have punished us severely. We suffered badly in 1969 and 1970 as it was." On strategy: "If Johnson had granted Westmoreland's requests to enter Laos and block the Ho Chi Minh trail, Hanoi could not have won the war. It was the only way we could bring sufficient military power to bear on the fighting in the South. Building and maintaining the trail was a huge effort involving tens of thousands of soldiers, drivers, repair teams, medical stations, communication units, etc. Our operations were never compromised by attacks on the trail. At times, accurate B-52 strikes would cause real damage, but we put so much in at the top of the trail that enough men and weapons to prolong the war always came out the bottom. If all the bombing had been concentrated at one time, it would have hurt our efforts. But the bombing was expanded in slow stages under Johnson and it didn't worry us. We had plenty of time to prepare alternative routes and facilities. We always had stockpiles of rice ready to feed the people for months if a harvest was damaged. The Soviets bought rice from Thailand for us. And the left: "Support for the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9AM to fo! llow the growth of the antiwar govement. Visits to Hanoi by Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and would struggle along with us ... those people represented the conscience of America ....part of it's war-making capability, and we were turning that power in our favor." Bui Tin went on to serve as the editor of the People's Daily, the Official newspaper of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. Disillusioned with the reality of Vietnamese communism Bui Tin now lives in Paris. LRS "

"The British attitude is to treat society like a game preserve where a certain percentage of the 'antelope' are expected to be eaten by the "lions". Christopher Morton

Reply to
Gunner
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The article of Bui Tin is very important as the subject it address is going to cost us seas of blood, and guarantee our loss in every military conflict.

We have got to learn that when american forces are engaged in combat descent ends. You open your mouth against the war effort you ass goes to jail..

You do a Jane Fonda or Ramse Clark you get a post and a firing squad. Before the combat begins or when the combat is over then you can demonstrate, speak, and write all you want.

The Independent

Gunner wrote:

Reply to
Jim Dauven

Jimbo, what you want is a totalitarian state - move.

"the price of freedom is eternal vigilence" - Patrick Henry.

What makes us strong *is* dissent.

"Descent" is something else, friend. Actually decent starts when you eliminate free speech and the sanctity of the individual citizen under the Constitution. Suggest you read the Declaration of Independence a few more times. Eh?

_-_-bear

Jim Dauven wrote:

-- _-_- BEAR Labs - Custom Audio Equipment, Cables, Mods, Repairs -

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Reply to
BEAR

What you obviously didn't read was the article by Bui Tin. The NVA counted on and supported (along with leftists world wide) the descent movement in the United States to gain them final victory. The rag head in Iraq and Al Quieda know that too. They know that and are counting on that the descent will grow and force the United States out of the middle east. We will be force to give up Israel and finely or word will mean nothing as a few shots will force us to do what ever a petty tin pot dictator of some third world country wants us to do.

In fact I am coming to the point of agreement. I wish to god that some Rag Head terrorist with nuclear weapons would turn NEW YORK CITY, BOSTON, LAS ANGLES, SAN FRANCISCO PORTLAND and SEATTLE in to a glowing nuclear craters. That would allow the rest of us to purge the nation of the foolishness that these cities have inflicted on this nation.

Also I would like to remind you that the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in 1942 in a case where individual liberty was being curtailed, ( don't remember the cite but remember the quote) "The Constitution is not a suicide pact"

The Independent

Reply to
Jim Dauven

Of course we would have to suspend elections indefinitely until the war is over. We could not have candidates question the war, it might give comfort to the enemy. Since the war on terrorism is expected to last decades, Bush would not need to worry about the inconvenience of elections.

All wars have events that if they had been different could have changed the outcome of the war. Viet Nam is no different in that respect. If we had fought on we could be still there. Would you be happy at that prospect?

Viet Nam is one of those historical events where our "worst scenario" occurred and we could observe the outcome. We lost in a rout, our dignity was pushed in the mud as we all watched the evacuation from the American embassy in Sigon.

Look how it has worked out. There was no communist monolith taking over South East Asia. Australia is not communist as some predicted. Thailand did not fall. Viet Nam and China did not form a Communist alliance. They are enemies that fought a war a few years later.

American relations with Viet Nam are improving. We are beginning to have trade with Viet Nam. A US Navy warship paid a curtsy visit to Viet Nam! Truly astounding. The worst outcome for America has turned into the best outcome for America.

The days of colonialism are long gone. Americas colony in the Middle East, Israel, is a thing of the past. Israel, like the other colonies, can gain legitimacy by giving the Palestinians their rights or they will be defeated. We can choose to follow them into defeat of we can work to reform Israel. The whites of South Africa choose give up Apartheid and give the Africans their rights. That brought them peace. Israel and America have the same choice.

Your hatred of the Arabs is clear. You sound like Gunner. Unfortunately some of your attitudes infect the thinking of our government. If we are not capable of dealing with the Arabs and their very different culture then we should separate. We should totally withdraw. We should have a live and let live policy. Our current relationship, you hit me and I hit you, will lead to even greater disasters than we have seen so far.

If you are old enough, you might remember the same talk and lies about Viet Nam. That we are doing the same thing again shows how little we have learned. The Arabs will fight long, hard and well for their countries in the same way that we would fight if America were invaded. I would fight along side you and Gunner to throw off the invaders. Why do you thing that the Arabs are any different?

Pete.

Reply to
Peter Reilley

What is wrong with this view is that the real problem wasn't the views or protests of "leftists" but that the government could not make a coherent case for the loss of 50,000 American lives in pursuit of what they presented as a nebulous and questionable thesis and policy.

The article by Bui Tin indicates a gross failure of military strategy by the US, and an even greater failure of analysis and intellegence.

Unfortunately, that's a very simplistic view of the world.

Don't wish for that.

Friend, your views appear to be very simplistic and foolish... nihilistic to some extent. Try to keep in mind that the men who founded this nation were not only extremely well educated, but they were also men of letters and the arts, and all were part of a *radical* and *unconventional* movement and segment of society - much like the people in the places you would like to nuke... Hmmm.

At the time a declared state of war (declared by Congress) existed. Such a thing did not exist and does not exist in the period since 1945. That is a big difference...

You are not "Independent" of anything if you espouse fascist or totalitarian or similar solutions to very complex and difficult problems...

_-_-bear

-- _-_- BEAR Labs - Custom Audio Equipment, Cables, Mods, Repairs -

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Reply to
BEAR

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"Gen. Tommy Franks says that if the United States is hit with a weapon of mass destruction that inflicts large casualties, the Constitution will likely be discarded in favor of a military form of government."

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

Interesting blind spin (as usual on your part). I dont hate the Arabs, or even the Palistinians as a people. Just those that encourage and act as terrorists. You on the other hand hate Jews in general, and Israelis in particular. Shrug. Ive never said in glowing approval, that the Israelis bomb a school bus full of Pal children. You not only have done so, but have indicated it was necessary.

Sorry Peter..you are the loose cannon here.

Gunner

"The British attitude is to treat society like a game preserve where a certain percentage of the 'antelope' are expected to be eaten by the "lions". Christopher Morton

Reply to
Gunner

I'm Jewish. I don't feel Peter hates me.

I think when Peter admitted Yasser Arafat was not the best leader that said a lot. I don't think Benjamin Netanyahu was a very good leader, either.

I don't agree with much of what Peter posts but I can understand why his perspective is very different from mine.

I also think Peter is much more mature than his main detractor who posts moronic nonsense over and over like: Petey Go Home. I fail to see how this serves any purpose whatsoever.

I think your approach to disagreeing with Peter makes a lot more sense.

jon

Unfortunately

Reply to
jon banquer

Brainwashed Petey claimed it was "heroic" to incinerate a school bus full of children, as long as they are Jewish children...

C'mon now Petey, chant with NED:

Brainwashed Petey go "HOME"! Brainwashed Petey go "HOME"! Brainwashed Petey go "HOME"!

Reply to
Gary

That is because you are so stupid you can't understand the meaning.

Should I spell it out for you, AGAIN?

Brainwashed Petey endlessly claims hereditary property rights for "Islamic" people. He claims Jews are "invaders". Lying Brainwashed Petey claims it is "heroic" to murder people IF they are Jewish, because simply existing in the place where their souperstition began, is "criminal" (but only for Jews). Brainwashed Petey demands they all be murdered unless they "go home"... Lying Brainwashed Petey claims that only "Arabs" are allowed on the land. He claims hereditary property rights for people who follow a specific religious group. He lies about who was there FIRST.

It was sensible, the FIRST hundred times he spewed the same old lying rhetoric. After dozens of people proved the truth, disproving his lies month after month, then it became moronic to keep proving it...

Brainwashed Petey is living on land which his own claims of hereditary property rights, demand that HE be murdered...

C'mon now Petey, chant with NED:

Brainwashed Petey go "HOME"! Brainwashed Petey go "HOME"! Brainwashed Petey go "HOME"!

Reply to
Gary

Well I am not Jewish but I think the jewish thing is over done.

The facts are Moslems killed 30,000 christians on east Timor. Are there any Jews or Americans government agencies on east Timor I don't think so.

Moslems killed 20,000 to 30,000 Hindus in Kashmir Are there any jews or American government agencies in Kashmir I don't think so. Moslems hav killed 2000-3000 christians in Pakistan. Are there any jews or American Government agencies in Packistan Well I guess there must be that they are keeping a VLP (very low profile) Moslems have killed 2,000,000 christians in the Sudan Are there any Jews or American Government Agencies in The Sudan I don't think so.

Moslems have killed 100,000 to 200,000 christians and burned over

500 churches in Nigeria. Are there any jews or American Government Agencies in Nigeria There probably are but again they are keeping a VLP

Moslems have killed Christians and Jews in the Balkans.

Bottom l>

Reply to
Jim Dauven

Ha ha. Don't get it do you? For folks living in the US, it's a real eye-opener when they realize that the majority of the world's citizens *do* indeed live in societies where rights are absolutely dependent on what religion you declare.

This is one reason for the first amendment in the US, the founding fathers decided from the git-go that the govenment had NO reason to be in the god business, and they put that down in black and white.

I always say this, but I'll belabor the point - anyone who thinks that the granite tombstone with the 10 commandmants chiseled into it should be displayed in a US courthouse should be forthwith transported to try to practice their brand of christian snake oil, in the PRC. Try it there, and _then_ tell me how the what a good idea it is when the government pushes a religion.

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

Reply to
jim rozen

Bear Can you explain to me in light of your assertion that we didn't belong in Viet Nam, or Afghanistan, or Iraq, or Israel, why I should care of a couple of rag heads fly airliners into the world trade center or blow the hell out of New York nuclear weapons.

I don't live, I have never visited there, I don't know any body that lives there, I don't do business with any body who lives there, the people of New York enable congress to pass laws that effect my lively hood and cultural values and I can't do any thing about it.

If you say that we shouldn't care about what went on in Viet Nam, or Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Israel they why should I care what happens in New York.

The Independent

Reply to
Jim Dauven

Duh? Hey Brainwashed Petey... What did you "snip"? Why did you snip it?

What is the "it" of which Gunner said "makes a pretty good case"?

I'm betting it had something to do with the blood lust of your sacred murdering terrorist loons...

C'mon now Petey, chant with NED:

Brainwashed Petey go "HOME"! Brainwashed Petey go "HOME"! Brainwashed Petey go "HOME"!

Do what you demand of the Ring Tailed Jews, or accept that your spew is nothing but lying brainwashed middle eastern souperstitious terrorist propaganda...

Reply to
Gary

Jim,

I'm sure that both sides are over done. The answer is having leaders who can work together on both sides. IMO, until Yasser Arafat dies of old age, or decides to completely remove himself from the process on his own accord and a Palestinian leader steps in who wants peace and has to power and the support to make it, there never will be peace in the mideast. Even then, it will be an uneasy peace.

What's needed are people like Sadat and Begin.

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In my personal opinion, if Yasser Arafat had a wife that looked like this, things might be better.

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jon

Reply to
jon banquer

Totally agreed. Said so many a time on here.

Good post.

ral

Reply to
Richard Lewis

OK gunner, time for some original thinking here.

Imagine that the US did enter laos and put the stopper in the pipeline.

And the US *did* 'win' the war. [1]

1) what would that 'win' look like - would it be another in a long series of occupation army visits? [2]

2) what benefit would the US devive from that 'win?' Ie, the fall of global communism, for example?

3) And most importantly, how would the global political, and economic picture be different for the US right now? [1] I'm sorry but this seems akin to the dog chasing a car. What *would* he do with it, if he caught the damn thing? At least in iraq there's the oil. [2] bonus question: what year (decade) will the US be able to withdraw its occupation troops from iraq?

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

Reply to
jim rozen

As soon as Haliburton confirms there's no more oil left in Iraq.

Lance

Reply to
Lance A Boyle

You stopped to soon;

Christians killed 6 million Jews in the Holocaust.

Christians killed unknown numbers in their effort to convert the heathens of the world to Christianity. The numbers are unknown because no one bothered to count.

Those two trump anything that Moslems have done in their history. So you see, the Moslems and the Christians are not so different.

Pete.

Reply to
Peter Reilley

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