When Justice Breyer says the US could learn from the Israeli courts he talks about the deep involvement of the Israeli courts in difficult decisions, including in military decisions.
For example, extrajudicial killing of terrorists could be done in Israel only according to strict laws the Supreme Court has set. The government must act according to these laws. Unfortunately there were too many cases were innocent bystanders were killed in those targeted killings, than the Supreme Court ordered the government and the army to minimize the damage to innocent bystanders. Following this court order the army changed his tactic, started to use special missiles developed in Israel with weakened warheads and the number of bystanders killed was dramatically decreased.
Yes, very impressive. Oppression with a human face. I notice that Israel has also advanced the science of torture. I watched one Israeli explain the "shaking" method of torture. This is where a Palestinian is shaken back and forth by the shoulders. This is done non-stop in shifts until the man is unable to hold his head up. The fact that sometimes this results in breaking their necks is unfortunate. It has the further advantage of not leaving marks on their bodies.
Israel has advanced the technology of torture, assassination, and language. Language? I think that the most impressive advancement that Israel has produced is the creation of euphemisms for all the horrors that it commits. "Extrajudicial killings", "moderate physical pressure", "security fence", etc. I forget the Israeli euphemism for blowing up peoples houses and the Israeli euphemism for genocide. All very impressive. It sure fools us Americans.
Quant, ever more sophisticated methods of assassination will not save Israel. Better methods of torture will not save Israel. F16's, helicopter gunships and even nuclear weapons will not save Israel. None of these things saved Apartheid South Africa why do you think that they will save you? The South Africans recognized the downward spiral that they were in and did something about it. You should do the same. Give the Palestinians their rights.
Thats advanced? Shit..any HSM worth his shop rag could make a shaking machine to do this automaticly.
Personally, my favorite method of torture is the Submarine Method. While a bit soggy..it leaves no lasting damage (except in the mind perhaps) and gets the job done quite well.
And all you need is a towel, a hose, a 5 gallon bucket and a plank.
Or if you really want to get fancy..a bathtub or pond.
Gunner
"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will, through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs, Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota). The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability. Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones, of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines." Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking
Killing terrorist is an oppression? Notice that Israel is keeping human rights more than the US do it in Iraq or Afganistan.
I persume you are an American citizen. When your country will start being carefull as Israel is when targeting terrorists, when your country will give archi-terrorists the ability to appeal to the court before their house is demolished - then come back and criticize Israel.
In Israel - torture is done under strict supervision of the Israeli court and only in very rare cases where it must be done in order to save lives - for example when Israel catch a terrorist who has information on suicide bomber on his way to one of Israel's cities.
In the US - in cases as I mentioned in the paragraph above, suspects are being tortured, the court do not supervise their investigation, the media don't criticize the investigating authorities as the Israeli media citizen them in Israel. The US has a long way to go before it will get to the level of human rights keeping that Israel is exercising.
Notice the example Justice Breyer gave: Israel let terrorists to choose an attorney. The terrorists also have family visits. Compare it to the American Guantanamo bay.
The US has a lot to learn from Israel, and indeed they do learn. For example, in Iraq, the US soldiers use Israeli videotapes in order to learn how to treat well the local population.
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The US has a lot to learn from Israel. When it comes to human rights issues, Israel is years ahead of the US.
The oppressors always describe those that resist oppression as terrorists. They are in fact resistance fighters.
I am ashamed with we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are becoming more like Israel every day.
America has our own minority struggling for equal rights. Some 30 years ago there was violence on both sides, the FBI, Black Panthers, Symbian Liberation Army. We could have made the same choices that Israel did and chose oppression instead of equal rights. If we had followed that course of action we would be just like Israel. We would have bombs going off everywhere.
America choose equal rights, Israel chose oppression. Israel is living in a world of it's own making.
How many Jews are tortured in Israel?
We are becoming comfortable with torturing Arabs. We use various ploys to get around US laws against torture, using surrogates, doing it offshore, not looking too hard at accusations of torture. You are right we are becoming more like Israel. I am ashamed of all of these things.
I hope that we learn no more. I hope we recognize the downward spiral that we have fallen into. I hope that we can get out before it is too late.
Israel is years ahead if the US on the road to hell. I hope that we turn back.
Well, it's been said that one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. Be that as it may, I'm not questioning the "reasons" for the discrimination against Palestinians, just noting that such discrimination probably exists.
Does discrimination against Palestinians exist, or not?
So you admit that Palestinians ARE discriminated against?
Is the assessment 'wrong' because it didn't mention non Arabs? Is the assessment correct as regards an Israeli Arab marrying a non-Israeli Arab?
But aren't your security concerns focused primarily on those of a certain ethnicity called Palestinian?
The Israelis have no problem firing rockets into the streets of crowded neighborhoods in order to assassinate someone that they think might be there. The Israelis have complete freedom of action in this war. The Palestinians do not. They resist oppression as best as they can.
You and I both condemn some of the attacks that the Palestinians carry out but do not use these events discredit the validity of their cause.
They aren't "targeting" children, although some civillians are frequently caught in the fire. Probably because the cowardly terrorists shield themselves among the civillians. The terrorists on the other, hand blow up school busses and other civillian targets. Apparently you're having trouble making a distinction here, Pete :o). Greg Sefton
Let us have a look at these events. The Palestinians live under brutal Israeli oppression. They are resisting with all the resources that they can muster. When they mount an attack on Israel they use the limited weapons at their disposal. The Palestinians know that many will not survive the operation even when it is not a suicide attack. Once the operation begins it must be completed rapidly or the Israelis will likely discover it. The target is often chosen in a hurry and may even change at the last minute if the bomber cannot get to the desired target. This often results in a bad target being chosen.
The Israelis, on the other hand, have complete freedom. The pilot of a helicopter gunship can simply not fire if there are civilians around. He can go home and rest in his hot tub until the next day when he can try again. This is not the way that Israel operates. For the Israelis, Palestinian neighborhoods are free fire zones. If there is a small chance for them to assassinate someone they will take it. It does not matter that the target is surrounded by children.
In the end, however, the Palestinians cause is just, they are resisting oppression. The Israeli cause is not just, they are fighting to oppress the Palestinians.
Hamei.. that is stretching it a bit don't you think.. China has had many shapes and forms of government.. Unless they can come up with a way to get cheap oil and power.. China will run out of steam before they really ever benefit from their "industrial revolution"
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