OT: One for Gunner

That story has more layers than an onion. Lott turned it into the centrepiece of his new book "The Bias Against Guns" so I investigated further. It seems that Tracy Bridges story of how he forced the killer to drop his gun by poinnting his own gun at him is probably a fabrication. Other witnesses are adamant that the killer put his (empty) gun down before Bridges arrived on the scene. Bridges was interviewed on live TV and never mentioned pointing his gun. He didn't start saying that until later.

Of course, in his book Lott never mentions the statements that contradict his pet theory. In fact, he even falsely claims that the killer was out of ammunition.

Tim

Might be illegal but it's easy to get a gun anywhere the police carry guns.

lot's of folks get really good at accurate repeat fire w/lever and pump actions. a bolt requires much more skill/training/experience, but nothing is more impressive than watching an NRA contestant shooing 300yd prone rapid fire strings w/a Sringfield issue bolt rifle. --Loren

They don't, in general, around here. At a few places like airports and Buckingham Palace there'll be some armed folks on display, but the general police just have sticks (not even pointy sticks). There are armed response units in fast cars that can turn up if needed.

But yeah, there's a growing market in illegal handguns in the UK these days!

ABS

This Martini action is historically interesting but not particularly desirable as a shooter. You could shoot it, but there are some specifics about the full-size military Martinis converted for the Miniature Rifle Clubs (which this one is) that make them iffy for anything more than low-pressure centerfire or rimfire use -- which is what they were modified for, anyway. This one is intended for small centerfire cartridges, although the same version also was used for rimfires.

If you want it, you can have it. I'm not likely to build any more rifles, and I haven't done so for 15 years. My son has absolutely no interest. However, Martinis come in four basic flavors, and this may not be the one you want. We can discuss it in email.

BTW, the most desirable Martini, to me, is the Australian Cadet. One of the Aussies here may be able to come up with one for you. Most of them were shipped to the US in the 1950's and were quickly converted to varmint rifles, so you aren't likely to find one here. They're probably cheap in Australia, if any of them are still around.

Also BTW, I used to buy Martinis at Navy Arms in NJ, where they'd let me scrounge through their piles and buy what I wanted for $35 each. I found a Model 12 heavy target model in Very Good for a friend in California that way. I paid $120 for it, which is probably 1/4 what it should sell for.

Ed Huntress

After reading your CV, I understand that you are too young to remember that when the automobile started becoming popular it was heralded as a "solution to polution", because the tons of horse droppings deposited every day on major city streets would no longer have to be suffered by the public.

BTW, as you're in England, and obviously an observant person, do you know if there's any truth to the rumors I've been hearing that violent crime has increased since the near total abolishment of private ownership of firearms? And, if so, has any connection been established? (Serious question).

I've heard a horror story about a farmer in your country who was sentenced to life imprisonment for shooting a thief on his property, after he had suffered a spate of recent robberies. IIRC, his sentence was recently reduced, but he still has to serve several years more. Know anything about that one?

BBL,

Jeff

-- Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can keep smiling when things go wrong, you've thought of someone to place the blame on."

Then your ideal action to start with is a Model 20. If, for some reason, you want to start with a full-size military action, then the one you want is the one I have. You would have to learn about the different ways these can be converted to rimfire, and, if you want accuracy, you'd have to replace the firing pin (titanium, or hollow) and spring, and spruce up the trigger. But, if you want it, it's yours.

They're not too hard to come by, but I haven't looked for one for over a decade. Call Navy Arms and see if they have any. I bought mine there for $15, around 1985.

.30/40 Krag, huh? Yes, you want goofy stuff. Too bad, I gave my Army Krag to an old friend, on the sworn condition he'd never shoot it with a full load. He wanted a wall-hanger and I don't. They're too frickin' old to trust, given the single bolt lug and the crappy metallurgy of the time. 'Smoothest bolt-action you've ever seen, however.

My intention with the MRC Martini I have was to build a rifle for offhand sheutzen events. I'd never owned a military Martini before, and, when I found out how slow the lock time was, and how creepy the trigger was, I realized I had a lot of work ahead of me to build a decent offhand rifle out of it.

I went for the MRC-modified action because it had historic interest and because this was to be an indoor rifle, for winter events, in which you need at least .30 caliber and you shoot at 50 feet. I intended to chamber it for the .32 S&W Long pistol cartridge, which is about ideal for that event and which wouldn't challenge the cut-down action.

About the Thai doctor: The ideal offhand shooter is a phlegmatic guy who always looks like he's just emerging from a coma, and who has a heart rate down in the danger range. A fat gut hanging over his belt doesn't hurt, either. I'm much too skinny for it.

Ed Huntress

Nothing is too long for a military Martini, except for a Roman candle. The original .577/.450 Martini-Henry cartridge for which it was chambered was a Longfellow. I'm sure you can find the dimensions in some cartridge-data source, probably on the Web.

-- Ed Huntress (remove "3" from email address for email reply)

Oh, cartridge length on the .577/.450 was 3.025 inches. I think the .38/55 is 2.550.

I hope you're thinking about light loads or BP, if you're thinking about this action of mine. The MRC conversion involved cutting a notch out of the back end of the receiver, where they screwed a peep sight. There's enough beef left there that it probably is no problem at all, but I tend to be cautious.

Check it out.

Ed Huntress

It's not as important how many buckets you have only if you keep them loaded with water.

John

Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup.

Yup, it would be cast bullet loads. Im a member of the Cast Bullet Assoc. and shoot mostly cast bullet loads for fun shooting. Which is why I was thinking about 30-40 Krag. Being .30 and having a number of moulds, and the 30-40 is an accurate cartridge, with low pressures even with jacketed bullets, and the cases are very heavy walled. 38-55 is well known for its accuracy with lead bullets as well.

Oddly enough..most of the Krags shot better if you reversed the bullet in the case and shot them (jacketed) base first. Wierd data bit.

Ive a couple Norweigen Krags in 6.5x55 that only get fired with cast as well.

Gunner

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" -- Ben Franklin

Id love to have it. Now we simply have to haggle over the barter issue as Im cash poor as hell.

Ayup. Ive owned a few Govt Krags, shot my last DCM match with one.. I still have a couple Norwegion ones that get shot pretty regularly. One was sporterized and an old Noske scope is on top of it. Shoots a

155g Lyman gas checked bullet from wheel weights nearly better than I can hold it.

Ive looked for years for a Ruger #3 in 30 Govt, but never could find one cheap enough to be able to pick it up.

A side note..Ive never been infected with Red Line Fever, and take great care in finding the accuracy sweet spot, not the hot rod sweet spot.

Now THAT is a good idea, or perhaps the new 32 H&R Magnum. Not much for pressure actually but makes a decent hotter loading for small game. Ive a Contenter barrel in 32-20, along with the dies and a mould..that might be interesting also.

Chuckle..45 ACP with a nice flat wad cutter would be an interesting indoor cartridge as well.

Im not much for off hand anymore..sigh..too much caffeine and nicotine in my diet. But I can still hold the 10 ring at 1000 yrds, but its harder every time I lay down on the mat.

Gunner

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" -- Ben Franklin

Then there is the Three S form of burglar control.

Gunner

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" -- Ben Franklin

I generally have a higher opinion of firemen.

Traps are illegal in the US too, and for the reason that they might harm an innocent. OTOH we can use directed lethal force to repel a home invader.

Burglars here have sued homeowners for injuries that they've incurred while breaking into a home. But unless the injury was the result of a deliberate trap, they generally get laughed out of court.

Gary

So not funny. "Hey, asshole, do me a favor and turn to face me, so I can shoot you legitimately". Riiiiight.

Shooting anyone in the back is cowardly, period. And shooting them in the front for no reason is too. You will have to prove you were threatened. If they are leaving, they are no longer a threat. The exception is in the case where they may be in possesion of your motor vehicle, only in that the vehicle is regarded as a deadly weapon. But if he is speeding away in your car, there ain't shit you can do about it.

Leathal force is, usually, only applicable in situations where one "is in fear of his life".

Burglers enter a domicile quietly, cops and firemen USUALLY make a huge production of coming in. In the odd case where they bust in the wrong door in a raid, you can shoot back, hell, they EXPECT it, in those situations. Most likely you won't get the chance, you'll be face down on the floor, cuffed befor you can do squat.

Not if they are beating your daughter to death. Have you ever been in such a situation? I will shoot, stab, kill with a pipe or bash the brains out of their skull with my hands if need be, all from the back, side , front or any other direction you can name. You can call me a coward if you want, but you are dead wrong.

And shooting them in

I don't have to be threatened, anyone can be threatened, I can legally and morally use deadly force on your behalf.

If they are leaving, they are no longer a threat.

You need a little more real world experience, just because a violent criminal has turned his back to me is no sign that the threat to life and limb is over, it also doesn't mean they are leaving.

JTMcC.

The

As can I. But I meant not spraying and praying as your car zips away down the street. If it turns around, take careful aim. :^)

Correct, especially here in Texas. I'm not debating you Gunner.

Agreed.

I am a CHL holder in Texas. And yes, there are alweays exceptions, I was speaking very generally, in response to the blanket statement made by the poster I was responding to. In the situation he was speaking of (burgler escaping), shooting in the back is not warranted. He wanted to get the burgler to willingly turn around so he could be "justifiably" end his burgling career. And of course, shooting someone who is beating someone else is legal as well. In Texas, usually, deadly force is o.k. for stopping car thefts. Happens all the time.

And, yes, even in the states, if you are minding your own business and the S.W.A.T. busts in your door, there ain't squat you are going to do about it. 1 in a thousand/million might have a pistol on their lap and get a shot off, but it would be a mistake.

I am not debating you. I was responding to the situation described by Gerald. You are in fact correct about defending someone else. As a matter of fact, having a CHL, in Texas makes the Highway Patrol officers happy, as they see you as a potential backup for them in a pinch. It has gotten me out of more than one ticket.

I was responding to this statement: "Just make certain that, if you shoot the bastards as they are leaving"

Correct. I was not clear in my statement.

But not just because you convinced a burgler to turn around for your shooting convenience.

Ad hominem won't work in this situation. You're correct in that there may be no sign of threat, but without EVIDENCE of threat no deadly force may be used.

I carry daily, have for many years, and have never need my gun, but then I keep a fire extinguisher handy too. Never needed it, either.

We are essentially in agreement. I was being very general.

An old man in Polk Co, FL a few years back had his car stoelen several times & armed himself with a 9mm. The next time he intercepted the teen thug breaking into his car (who had a long rap sheet) and emptied the mag as the punk ran down the driveway. IIRC, 7 of the bullets hit the little shit in the back, killing him. The man was uncharged and hailed as a hero. The law ruled he had used "justifiable force to prevent a crime." Maybe there is some justice :o). Greg Sefton