OT: Today is November 11th - Thank you

As an American couple remembering this day and its meaning, thank you. You said it well.

It's easy to think that we Americans did it for someone else, but "we" did it for ourselves as well, because "we" believed in what we were doing and believed our enemies were wrong. "We" all lost a lot, and some lost much more than others. Friends are hard to replace, family is impossible to replace. However, if our cause is just then it must be done, and the best we can do is to honor and remember the costs of war, and the benefits of having morally strong and brave men and women stood up against our enemies. To all those who have lost loved ones, today is a day when we make a special point to honor them, but they're always honored and in our memories.... Bob

As I am. And since she is Dutch, you may know, that every year on 11-11, at precisely 11:11 PM the "Council of Eleven" (Raad van Elf) is ceremoniously installed to begin to organize the festivities in connection with Carnaval the following February. Their Chief is Prince Carnaval. Every town and city has their own, as has every Carnaval Association is those cities and towns. That's a lot of beer going down! Do a google on "Raad van Elf", to see some pictures of these guys in the full regalia.

In my humble opinion a much more joyful and "meaningful" occasion to remember and celebrate.

Thank you.

BTW, I gave some money to a 42 year old homeless veteran, on the streets of San Francisco, last evening on my way home. We spent some time talking. What a rough life this man has had. He had been to the VA in the morning, they more or less had kicked him out. The government has by and large forgotten them, and does not take care of them.

And no matter how often the shrub talks about our "brave men and women in uniform", and no matter how many flight suits he puts on, his words sound hollow to most veterans. Not that Clinton was any better, or any other president for that matter, except Eisenhower, and Kennedy maybe. They knew.

Veterans Day indeed. The poor bastards. Fighting for what exactly?

I am from a family where "Uncle Adolph" came to dinner every night, my father sat out the festivities in Auschwitz, my mother tore the yellow star of her coat and jumped out of the boxcar of the train on her way there, and spent the rest of the war underground! Soldiering is not something that is thought of lightly by me, but mostly thought of as an occupation for fools.

As the Samurai, the most awesome warrior class that ever lived, used to say. "The way of the warrior (Bushido) is death".

Abrasha

Many here have family members buried in Europe, where they died young, in the effort too stop those running Auschwitz. That you consider them fools says a lot about your character.

JTMcC.

You need to read a little better. I did not say that I consider them fools. Please read again what I wrote. I wrote that I consider "soldiering" an occupation for fools. IOW, a poor career choice. I realize that "soldiering" is not a proper verb.

If I am not mistaken, there was a military draft during WW II. As was the case in many other wars. Those young men had no choice, they were sent by their government.

That you are not capable of reading and interpreting a simple sentence written in English, says a lot about you.

Abrasha

Hey Tom,

Thank You. Well put.

Brian Laws>Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking, rec.woodworking,

The fools who fought overseas in ww2 were ordinary citizens, not professional soldiers. That's what made the difference. They were just there to do a job - the book "Citizen Soldiers" made it pretty clear that those folks just wanted to go home, 'fer chrisakes,' and the quickest way home just happened to be up the beach-head and into france - and germany.

There's a fight here locally, to close down the inpatient care at the VA hospital. Cost cutting and all. Seems a shame, they should make some of those companies like Haliburton and Exxon-Mobil Megacorp shoulder some of teh financial responsibilies there.

There was a fairly large "America First" party in the US before the war, who strongly advocated the 'soldiers are fools,' don't send our kids into somebody else's war.

Topic for discussion: how would the world be different now if the America First folks prevailed - and the US simply never joined the conflict in Europe?

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

If it had not been for the soldiers..Belson Bergan etc etc would still be sending up plumes of black smoke. You would not be here. You at best would be a drone in the Turd Reich (you would make a great political officer with the Sicherheitsdienst . You have the mindset of a totalitarian lacky.

Papers Pleeze...ah zooo..zend zem to za vall und zhoot them..cackle giggle choke.... Javol Herr Obersturmbannführer Abrasha!

Gunner

Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

Form This Veteran to others especially those still serving

Thank You for your sacrifice so we can preserve our way of life!!!!!

There are 2700 homeless veterans on the streets of San Francisco, and 30% of all homeless people in the US are veterans. This according to a radio report I heard this morning. Also in interviews with veterans at the organization "From Swords to Plowshares", I heard plenty of disgruntled veterans saying how poorly they are being treated by their government, and by the general public.

What did you do for a veteran yesterday, other than posting this tearjerker on a news group with a handful of exclamation points?

I bought one a meal yesterday, and listened to him for a few minutes.

And you are right, that "those still serving" in Iraq are there to preserve our "oil based" way of life.

Abrasha

With few exceptions, the Homeless Street person is either mentally ill, or an addict, be it drugs or booze. There are countless programs to aid these people, all free. All with rules however and the vast majority of those street people do not want to follow the rules of those organizations providing free (and decent aid). Shrug..simple fact of life. I did a stint as a volunteer in several veteran related programs, and of course several years on the street as a cop, so I do know what Im talking about. Being all touchy feely only enables them unfortunately.

When you consider the many millions of veterans living in the Bay area, and only 2700 of them are street people, thats below the national average for the mentally ill or addicted. What about the others? The ones not living on the street in their self inflicted squalor?

As to your spew about the Oil based way of life... did someone hold a gun to your head and force you to immigrate from the Netherlands? Are you shackled to your crude bed? Or are you simply a hypocrite of the first water, no better than those "others" you so dispise?

In the past..the biggest threat to western civilization, was the European (of which you number), but today..its the religious fundimentalism of Islam as personified by the various groups in the Middle East, all hell bent on destroying or forceing the conversion of all others. Since the world has gotten to be a much smaller place, what does happen in Haifa, does effect me.

Quite frankly, Id much rather the issue be settled once and for all. If it takes the death of every militant fundimentalist in the Middle East, shrug..works for me. As long as their children can be raised without the fear of rape camps, being fed feet first into tree shredders, and the women considered human beings, not chattal property, it works for me. Unless you Abrasha, are in support of child rape, torture, murder and all the nasty rest. Are you?

It appears that the US has been given the role of global policeman, or global peacemaker, and has had that role forced on us by the Europeans and now the Middle Easterners. Unless you think we should have sat out the various world wars? Holland would have made a very quaint resort area for the Reichministry, and you and yours would have made very quaint slaves to do their bidding. Count your blessings and get your head out of your ass.

Gunner

Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

Good for you little buddy, why are you here instead of your homeland, putting on your clown suit and annointing your beloved and meaningful Prince as your Chief? The only reason your people can resume the stupid games they play is because my American uncles died killing Germans, several decades ago. Who does the world look too for strong young warriors, willing to defend liberty? Not the Dutch my man, you can be assured of that. You are slurping up all the advantages, and at the same bloody time decrying the harsh sacrifices of honorable men that make your sloppy, stupid existence possible. And you better believe I take this personal you pitifull little creep.

JTMcC, still waiting for the Dutch to become the defenders of freedom in the world.

This is a bit of a misapprehension. Apparently the majority of civilians executed in the war were killed by a neck-shot and dumped in pits. This apparently was the most efficient way the germans found it was best to simply inform the citizens of a town that they were being re-settled and that everyone was to show up at the town square in the morning.

Then they would be marched off down the road (lined with a show of force to prevent run-aways) to the woods, where there was a pit already dug. Bang - next. Bang - next. Bang - next. Etc.

Sure the labor and killing camps got a lot of press, but you probably know of the ravine called 'Babbi Yar' and what happened there. Other than those civilians who were force marched long distances into labor camps, and then back again in the spring, this is how most of those poor folks died.

After reading about what happened on those forced marches, I decided that I would never do that - if faced with that eventuality, I would start shooting and not look back.

I'd rather die all at once, than of hunger and disease, over two years.

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

Gunner snipped-for-privacy@lightspeed.net

Bergen-Belsen, in the north. It was liberated by Eisenhower, iirc. Was also where Anne Frank was sent; she was also Dutch. Frank Morrison

Gunner, for someone who proclaims to be so open minded, you spew some wickedly spun tales.

Last time I checked, Iraq didn't attack the US. Iraq wasn't responsible for

Perhaps the war will turn out happily and Iraq's people will live happily ever after. But, perhaps history will see Bush as a tyrant and the United States of America a warmonger. Perhaps in 50 years those in other countries will be talking about "the biggest threat" at the beginning of the 21st century. Can you guess who they'll be talking about?

Tell us Gunner, who else is up for an unprovoked attach? Should I be running for my life? We make many of your cars here. Once Iraq is tapped out, is Alberta next?

WAIT, I thought you guys didn't make the first strike? How times have changed.

I'm not saying your country sucks, but YOU should know that WE see the world in a different light.

Regards,

Robin

Gunner snipped-for-privacy@lightspeed.net

Sometimes, what's done in the aftermath of war is most critical. Like then, like now. FM

When you lads start committing genocide on the Quebecers...hummmm bad example..ok..the BCers...and we dig up over 300,000 dead in mass graves..start looking over your shoulder for that interesting whistling noise as an AC 130 starts making a run.....

So..many childrens prisons and rape camps in Canada? Ottawa make it a habit to slowly run folks through tree shreders in front of their family as an object lesson?

Do get your head out of your ass. Perhaps you Kinder and Gentler types should take a holiday in Iraq. Might I suggest volunteering for the job of unwiring the arms and legs of those in the mass graves, so they can be identified? Then we can talk about seeing the world in a different light......

Gunner

"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important." -- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960