Removing Rust from a MIll

Please note that I have purchased and restored rusty machines.

While sandpaper and lots of elbow grease work, there is nothing wrong with using acid so long as the proper acid is selected. For sure, don't use hydrochloric (muriatic), but using phosphoric acid not only stops the rust, but converts it to something that is protective of the remaining metal.

Naval jelly is just phosphoric acid that has been formulated to be brushed on. It is a good product but you can achieve equal results with concentrated phosphoric acid. I purchased a 5 pint bottle of reagent phosphoric years ago and still use it for removing rust on some items. I generally dilute it somewhat with plain tap water. Wearing rubber gloves, I either spread it on with a paint brush, or a small rag.

The down side of any machine that has rusted is that they do not rust uniformly, though even if they do, you are giving up what you pay for in pre cision machine tools, the precision. I am not a fan of rusted machines and don't consider buying them a wise decision, not even when they are very cheap. By the time you've restored the features that one may rely upon for accuracy, you may be invested in the machine far and away beyond its value, and in some cases, you may never restore the machine's ability to perform as it was originally intended.

I think that your biggest concern should be the nature of the rust, and where it is rusted. If you have rust that has pitted the metal, it's highly unlikely you'll end up with a machine that would be reliable in doing precision work. Pay particular attention to the ways of the machine. If they are rusted, especially such that the slides don't work, or won't move easily, you're likely to end up with a poor machine unless you invest considerable time and money. If the screws have rusted, they are questionable, too. Replacement would be in order, for the rusted surfaces will simply abrade the nuts, causing rapid wear. Don't fail to consider that bearings, seals and gears may no longer be functional.

It's difficult to not get caught up in how a machine tool looks, for example how nicely it's painted. While that may make for a nice display piece, it's far more important for your machine tools to work properly. Ways that have been rusted and cleaned will rarely perform at a respectable level. Do not construe that statement as my saying they won't function, but a machine tool isn't necessarily a good one simply because it still runs and can still take a cut.

Good luck with your mill. Let us know how it turns out.

Harold

Naval Jelly is a phosphoric acid product, and quite handy. Because it's thick it stays where you put it. Wipe it on. Wait. Wipe it off. Easy.

A surprising amount of rust wipes off with just oil and a rag.

Mke sez:

"A surprising amount of rust wipes off with just oil and a rag." True, true. But don't be mislead. Anytime you are able to wipe off rust, you are in fact only removing the remains of what was good metal. It will only look better.

See Harold's excellent post above. The rust you remove by whatever method, leaves the pits behind. They may be microscopic, but they're there. Clean up for appearance's sake, but go easy! Remember that rust removal does nothing to restore functionality; the pits may be cleaner, but they are still pits. "Like new" performance can only be restored by machining (finish grinding ?) of the entire surface, whatever it may be - flat, round, elliptical, cat's ass, or whatever.

Bob (done a lot of rust) Swinney

concentrations?

Greetings:

I used a combination of electrolytic rust removal and brass brushes to clean up a 16" x 8' Southbend lathe. I did not use acid on ways and other precision surfaces because, according to multiple sources, the acid acts upon good metal as well as rust. The electrolytic method, on the other hand, acts on the rust only, while leaving the underlying good metal intact (according to multiple sources). I found various references using google search, including a full explanation (I think archived on this newsgroup) of how the electrolytic method works, in technical terms.

I used brass brushes, primarily mounted in handheld power drill, to clean up the bedways. The brass is supposedly softer than the iron, but harder than the rust. I was prepared to build a plastic lined electrolytic tank for the bed, but the brushes worked to my satisfaction. The electrolytic method will remove paint.

The L00 chuck was stuck to the spindle. I submerged the chuck and spindle up to just over the threaded collar, and treated with the electrolytic method for about 8 days. The parts separated easily after treatment.

Adequate cleaning of small parts can be achieved overnight. Sometimes I forget about a soaking part for several days. No harm done.

If you want some pictures of my setup and perhaps before and after of electrolytic rust removal, I can post some to the dropbox. I'm working on a drill press and power hacksaw at the moment.

Regards, Jim Brown

Could it be a result of my recent fall from a wall, and resultant concussion, as we struggled building our house?

Thanks, Jim. I appreciate your kind remarks!

Harold

Vordos

Heavy sigh! No, it really was a fall. Can't say what the cause was because what happened makes no sense. I was working off scaffolding at 6' high, using an old aluminum ladder to get up and down. My left knee is junk and troublesome, so climbing the scaffolding isn't very comfortable for me. I was at the right hand end of the scaffolding preparing to set one of our building blocks which are recycled polystyrene beads bonded with cement.

You can trust me, though, had Susan been on the same side of the wall, I might ask "who pushed me?" :-)

We're making progress, but a roof this season appears to be out of reach. We're hoping to get the house to finish height, then attach tarps to the top plate, deflecting winter rains to the basement, where they will be eliminated by three floor drains that go directly to a catch basin, not our sewer system.. Not the best scenario, but the best we can come up with under the circumstances, and that will protect the wooden portions already installed. Main floor is in and we're working on the ledgers for the top floor at the moment. Hope to pump grout in the next week or so.

Thanks for asking, Larry.

Harold

Funny how this stuff works, short term memory gets written into, but if an accident interrupts the transfer into long term, you wind up with a blank spot preceeding a concussion. That's happened to me in the past, and it's quite disturbing, though if you realize what's going on, less so.

At least the accident did not impair your sense of humor, Harold.

Still, it was a darn good thing she was there. I would say if she watches out for you, and is helping with the construction, that she would be a 'keeper.'

Sounds very adventurous. Are you doing all this work, just the

Maybe you could install a temporary roof, such as corrugated fiberglass sheets, to keep the rain out altogther?

Best of luck to you folks - Jim

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"jim rozen" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@drn.newsguy.com...

Yep! Interestingly, I've been through this thing once before, almost the same aside from a dislocated clavicle on my left side, which is the most traumatized again. In '64 I was run off the road while riding my gorgeous '63 Triumph TR6. Same conclusion. I don't remember anything from that aside from a brief moment in the ambulance whereby I remember hearing a muffled siren. Thought you'd like this part considering your love for bikes.

Hard to tell. I'm pretty grumpy, but then I was before the crash, too.

Jim, I've been through one previous marriage, one that lasted 14 years. Susan and I got married 26 years ago. Had I known then what I know now, the first marriage would have never happened. Susan is, without a shadow of a doubt, one of the finest people I've been privileged to know. My biggest problem with her is keeping her out from under my feet. She is so willing to be helpful that it is somewhat annoying. Together, we have built and completed our shop, a building that is 32' X 80', 12 foot ceilings, three 10' X 10' overhead doors. The shop is built from the same material as the house, and aside from having the footings and stem wall poured, along with the main floor, 6" thick concrete, we have done all the building without assistance. The one exception to that is the exterior finish on the shop, and likely the house, too, when it's that far along. We used a product known as Pleko, a synthetic stucco, which is difficult to apply without some experience, but worse than that, it has a very narrow window within which it is applied and then floated. Wait too long and it comes back off. You can't do small sections because it leaves witness lines. A crew must apply and finish the product. So then, you can conclude that we have done all the work, including installing the 3 phase service and related wiring, all plumbing, all finishing. The shop has a built in vacuum cleaner system, airlines and almost all power in the walls, with everything painted three coats. Nice bathroom with a tiled shower. We heat hydronically, using an oil fired boiler and a Heatway system, which we installed ourselves. I built the distribution manifold for the system from 1¼" copper pipe. We even made a mold to cast our window sills, which turned out great. She has been totally supportive of every decision, including my buying additional machine tools (some of them rusty). I'm a very fortunate person to have her in my life. Yes, indeed, she is a keeper!

Yep, just the two of us. To go along with that, we also designed the house, and drew up the blue prints. The only thing that required some outside assistance was when I had to choose the proper size I beams for the structure, of which there are three. A neighbor, a retired EE from Boeing, has been a good friend, so he helped me with the math. Remember, I'm not educated beyond high school. Surprisingly, my choices, dictated by need, were perfect, but I had no idea that was so until he ran the numbers.

To lift the building blocks on the wall, I built a boom for our little Kubota tractor. It replaces the bucket on the front, and has a boat winch included in its construction so we can lift and lower the blocks, along with place them by moving the boom in and out, up and down. It turned out great, a device that made building with the material possible. We'll be able to place the blocks on top of a two story house, which ours will be.

That would be the best of all worlds, but rather expensive (we live on Social Security). We had struggled with the idea of installing the trusses and then tarping them, but that would actually be more intensive than our current plan. The increased surface area and greater exposure to winter winds would likely make it more difficult to effectively keep out the rain. Hard to say. If I could find some surplus sheets as you described, I think I could incorporate them into my current plan to work very well.

Thanks, that means a lot to us. We've worked very hard on the project, which is to be our final home. Susan wanted to leave Utah and live here amongst the trees, so it's a small price for me to pay to have her happy. Needless to say, I'm very content here as well. It was very rewarding for us to leave the stifling environment of the Salt Lake Valley. Neither of us are particularly taken with religion, myself especially. I consider myself an agnostic, so living amongst religious zealots was not easy. I think you understand where I'm coming from.

Harold

Well. Not educated, *formally*. Apparently somethings stuck there, over the years though! Why am I not suprised that the term 'Boeing' again surfaces. Those guys seem to be everywhere.

:^)

I think I've mellowed a lot over the years.

What an amazing project. It must get a bit daunting at times. I take it you are living in the shop while the rest of the structures go up - I had relatives that did that, they lived in their garage while the main house was being built. Their house in Kingston, NY, is now a bed and breakfast.

My hat's off to your wife, Harold. Oh - and to you too!

Jim

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Any woman willing to build the shop first and live in it while her house is being built is almost one of a kind! You are a lucky man, Harold! Even I could not get away with that!

Glad to hear you are OK. That could have turned out differently, as I'm sure you are aware. Every day is a gift.

Best Regards,

Mark

On 16 Aug 2003 22:45:34 -0700, jim rozen pixelated:

Condolences on the fall, Harold.

Ouch, a wet/snowy season without a roof?

I saw some pics last year (Hi, Harold!) and they are, indeed, an industrious couple. The finished castle won't be as large as their first but it puts my 1,700sf cabin to shame. I had ostensibly planned on contacting him and stopping by to actually see them (and their work) on my way to Seattle last month but I ended up driving to NorCal and flying to Alaska instead. My trip to view the BigArn sights in Bellingham will have to wait until next year, but I waved to Harold, Susan, and Grizzly from the plane on the way by.

Rain? It doesn't rain in Warshington. (Think Noah.)

--------------------------------------------------- I drive way too fast to worry about my cholesterol. ---------------------------------------------------

Hey Guys,

Thanks so much for your help. I think that I'm going to initially try to use the Phosphoric Acid on the parts that aren't too badly rusted and the Electrolytic process for the more rusted parts. Luckily, it's only the handles and overarm that are the worst rusted - I'll try the electrolytic process for these types of parts. The table and ways have mostly superficial rust on them and I'll try to use the phosphoric acid on these parts.

Where does one get phosphoric acid? What concentration should I use?

Once again, thanks for your help.

Dave

Harold and Jim,

Harold, thanx for deflecting this thread off of the disheartening subject of rust. Rust is sort of like VD in the family - really something we are uncomfortable talking about.

And Jim, very sorry to hear of your miseries, although it sounds as if the worst is behind you. Take care and follow all of the good advice leading toward a full and speedy recovery. One thing, though: Forget this silly notion that you never need professional help, Grin.

Best regards,

Bob

Uh oh. Is something bad happening to me? Or about to start happening?

I think you have me and harold mixed up, vis a vis the non-parachute event. I hope!

Jim

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I have been investigating rust removal for my recently aquired craftsman

Naval Jelly is phosphoric acid in a gelled carrier. For either the gelled or plain acid, you brush it on, wait, then wipe it off. Phosphoric acid is a rust converter, it changes rust from the red scaly ferrous oxide to the black hard ferric oxide. You can paint over the latter. Phosphoric *is* an acid, however, and will attack sound metal, so you don't want to leave it on for more than a few minutes before wiping it off and thoroughly rinsing the piece.

If you have hard black ferric oxide you want to remove, you either have to use the much stronger muriatic acid, or remove it mechanically with wire brushes or sandpaper. Either method will damage the underlying sound metal. If it is a surface to be painted, then leaving the hard black ferric oxide in place is ok. It'll adhere strongly to the underlying metal, and paint will stick to it.

The electrolytic method is better for machined surfaces. It only removes the ferrous oxide, leaving the sound metal untouched. You usually have to leave the part in the tank for hours to get all the rust off, but it is ok to leave it in for days because the process won't remove sound metal. It'll help if you ocasionally shut off the power and brush the piece being cleaned with a bristle brush. That'll knock the loose crud that forms during the process off the piece and let the current do its work better.

Rinse well and oil (or paint) immediately after using the electrolytic method because the now extremely clean metal will rust quickly if not immediately protected.

Gary