SCREWS FOR 3/8 SHANK INSERT TOOL HOLDERS

I bought some 3/8" turning tools for my QC 100 series tool post, but the insert screws seem to be poor quality. Any source for these screws,
either hex or Torx? Can anyone give me a spec for these screws? They seem to be 3-56 thread.
David
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Kinda needing more information......
In a pinch you can use button head hex, but for the real deal you need to go to the tooling manufacturer--if this aint possible, you can probly go to kennemetal or somesuch and talk to the engineering folks.
Spare parts might be available for some items like this from suppliers like MSC or J&L, but itsa crap shoot if theyre gonna actually fit or not......these probly have a fairly steeply tapered head, no ???
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PrecisionMachinisT wrote:

Yes, they're tapered to match the hole in the insert. I know they're some kind of standard, because the screws in my different sets interchange, but I'm looking for spares and don't know what to call them. I couldn't find anything similar in Machinery's handbook ... which doesn't mean they aren't there! :^)
David
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    [ ... ]

    [ ... ]

    It sounds as though you have the cheap indexable sets in which there is a single angle milled in the top to guide one edge, and a screw through the insert to hold it.
    Note that these seem to be a tradeoff (aside from the cheap screws (which at least are less likely to *break* *off* in the shank). The holder costs less, but the inserts tend to cost more, and over time a more expensive system will cost you less.
    What you have came in a set of five? Left-hand, left angle, straight ahead, right angle, and right-hand? And there were probably one or two spare screws, along with one or two wrenchs to fit?
    And -- I (in the past) have found those inserts to be more fragile than the ones which I now use. They are too thin, and not sufficiently supported.
    The more expensive ones (e.g Valenite) have a screw which is just a cylindrical pilot to hold the insert centered, and the insert is held by a clamp from the top. (It also has a carbide anvil below the insert to give it more support against breaking under heavy cutting loads.) The carbide *anvil* is actually clamped down by the screw, which has a "head" in the middle.
    I gave away a set of the cheap ones, as I will never again use them.
    In the past, I got some tools with 100 inserts each purchase (from eBay) for less than a box of ten inserts for the system which I suspect that you have. These were negative rake tools with the chipbreaker groove to make them cut as positive rake tools, so the shank holds them at an angle to provide clearance (as the sides of the inserts are not angled). this allows you to use all three corners, then to turn the insert over, and use three *more* corners (unless you manage to break off a corner, which is a job). The shanks which I got hold the inserts point first, so they are nice for rough turning or for beveling, but not good for turning to a square shoulder. I ordered a left and a right hand shank from MSC to fit the same inserts.
    Later, I ordered the Aloris 16N BXA holder from MSC, which *directly* mounts two of the inserts -- one for turning and one for facing, both on a single holder. I am only barely scratching the surface of the stock of inserts which I got from the eBay auctions.
    Note that for your toolpost (Series 100 or AXA), I would not bother with 3/8" shanks. I would go for the largest size which those holders would take -- which is 1/2" (and the BXA takes 5/8").
    I hope that this helps,         DoN.
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(from eBay) for less than a box of ten inserts for the system which I suspect that you have. These were negative rake tools with the chipbreaker groove to make them cut as positive rake tools, so the shank holds them at an angle to provide clearance (as the sides of the inserts are not angled). <<
Are they anything like this one?
http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/toolholder/drawing.html http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/toolholder/toolholder.html

bother with 3/8" shanks. I would go for the largest size which those holders would take -- which is 1/2" (and the BXA takes 5/8").<<
I have the same toolholder and use the 3/8" tools on mine because the 1/2" cutters sit too high. I would either have to modify the cutters or the holders to use them on my lathe. :-(
Best Regards, Keith Marshall snipped-for-privacy@progressivelogic.com
"Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." - Will Rogers (1879-1935).
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    Not exactly. Those are sort of part-way between the cheap ones which I mentioned and the ones which I have.
    I just tried to find them on MSC's web page, and it was fighting me the whole way. So -- let's try the catalog itself.
1)    The cheap set is on page 598, top left corner. (Though these     are priced above the really cheap sets.
2)    What I have is found on page 605, marked "MTLNR/L Style", and     more precisely, I have one each of "MTLNR 10-2B" and "MTLNL     10-2B", plus a MTENNS-12-3B (bottom third of page 604), which     I've ground along the bottom to fit to a BXA sized tool holder.
    This is in the 2004/2005 "Big Book".
    For differences, note the following points from the drawing on that page:
A)    The enlarged head where the insert is clamped.
B)    The overhanging clamp pointing towards the center of the insert.
C)    The screw in the center of the insert does *not* hold the     insert to the shank, bur rather only keeps it from slipping     sideways. The clamp does the hold-down.
D)    Looking at the right-most drawing (side-view), you can see that     there is something between the insert and the shank. This is the     solid carbide anvil, which supports the insert during hard     turning.
    The listing shows that they are made with 1/2" shanks, instead of the 5/8" that I need, and the 3/4" which I had to modify on one of the tools (the straight ahead one on page 604, which came from an eBay auction with 100 inserts.
    Aha! here is a better view of how the toolholder is made -- top left corner of page 609, which shows both the center screw (called "lock pin" for inserts with the hole, and "shim screw" for just holding the anvil in place when using inserts without a through hole.

    That means that the AXA/Series-100 toolpost is too large for *your* lathe -- probably because it is smaller than the toolpost was designer for -- or because the compound is a bit too tall. IIRC, the AXA/Series-100 toolposts are for 9-12", and the BXA-Series-200 are for 10-15". But the thing which matters is the height from the bottom of the toolholder (which may wind up resting on top of the compound's T-slot) to the *top* of the slot for the tool shank. On the AXA/Series-100, this distance is: 15/16th of an inch, and for the BXA/Series-200, it is: 1-1/8". This should be compared to the height of the point of a center in the headstock spindle above the top of the compound's T-slot.
    It *might* be possible to lower the top of the compound by machining off some of the side which mounts to the cross-slide, if there is sufficient meat for that. Removing from the top of the compound is a more significant problem, as it is hard to move the T-slot deeper into the compound -- unless you fill in with weld and re-machine the T-slot. In any case, be sure that you won't weaken the machine. Ideally, modify spare parts so you can always restore to the original.
    Good Luck,         DoN.
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I have one similar to that but it uses a smaller insert and the one that came in it is solid without the hole in the middle. I haven't looked for inserts for it because it's the only one I have like that. I figured the cheap 3/8" set would be better in the long run but like you I've found that they're not so great after all. :-)

Mine is a 9 x 20 JET so in theory it should have fit but it missed it by about 1/16". It doesn't use a t-slot for mounting either. In addition to the 3/8" indexable set I use 7/16" brazed carbide cutters like the ones on page 530:
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGES0&PARTPG=NNLMK32
They work pretty well and I can buy them from my local WT Tool store for $1 each or so.
I like the ones you're using but can't justify the expense now so I'll probably make some based on the drawing I referenced earlier. I've already picked up a couple dozen of the inserts.
Best Regards, Keith Marshall snipped-for-privacy@progressivelogic.com
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    Yep!
    Hmm -- perhaps the toolpost bolts directly to the compound? I've seen that on a larger Jet machine some years back. (A 12x40 or so machine with a gearbox in the headstock instead of belts.)
    In that case, there may be sufficient meat to mill 1/16" off the top of the compound.
    Or -- I got an e-mail from the USA Phase-II representative today, telling me about a couple of smaller sized quick-change toolposts, one of which may be a better bet for your 9x20 Jet.

    O.K. I tend to avoid brazed cutters -- except for some boring bars. I depend on the repeatability of an indexed tool, and you don't have that when you have to change the whole tool once the carbide dulls.

    *That* is attractive.

    O.K. Keep your eyes open for sales, which may make them a bit sweeter. You'll be amazed at the rigidity of those tools. (Do you get the MSC flyers? Sometimes something you really need pops up on the sales.)
    Good Luck,         DoN.
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Right. There's a stud in the center of the compound that the original 4-way tool holder was mounted on. There probably is room to machine 1/16" off the top of the compound but I'm hoping to find a bigger lathe instead. :-) So far I haven't done anything that I needed 1/2" tooling for although I'm sure the bigger the better.
If I did not already have my current QC setup I would probably have bid on this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item842594925

Good point.

Yes, and the Enco flyers too, plus I have WT Tool here in town and they sell much of the same stuff, often at better prices. Unless I'm in a hurry for something though I usually just try and find tooling at auctions. I've been to probably 20 or more auctions for machine shops, manufacturers and even race shops in the area that have gone bankrupt in the last 3 or 4 years. It's really depressing but it's also the only way I can afford much of what I have. :-/

I like that one! :-)
Best Regards, Keith Marshall snipped-for-privacy@progressivelogic.com
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    O.K.
    Hmm ... looking at the color of the collar at the top, plus the color of the toolholders, I believe that these are made of aluminum. A bit of a tradeoff -- lighter to change tools easily, but not as rigid. And it looks like a piston style, as well as I can tell from the photos.
    Note that the e-mail I got earlier from the Phase-II rep said that in a couple of months, they will be selling the same ones, but made of steel instead. Unless the price is a killer, I would hold out for the Phase-II ones for this size of lathe.
    [ ... ]

    Does "WT" have a longer name which I might recognize? I think that they are not represented over on the East Coast, as I have not heard of them.
    Sure -- MSC never *claims* to be the lowest price. But, they are more likely to have *everything* that you need -- or be able to get it for you. And for me, at least, they are quite quick. A call in the early evening from Northern VA will usually get me everything on the doorstep via UPS the next (working) day, about 3:00 PM. (This assuming that it is all in stock in Harrisburg PA. If not, some things have to be shipped separately, usually from Huntsville, and those arrive the day after.)
    And -- MSC does not have a minimum purchase -- though I seldom send in an order for less than $100.00 once I get started. I usually thumb through the most recent flyers before calling in an order.

    I understand. A lot of what I have (including the Clausing lathe, the Nichols horizontal mill, and the Rockwell/Delta/AMMCO 7" shaper) all came from eBay, as did much of the tooling for the machines. Yes, some I bought new, once I discovered what else I needed that did not come up too often on eBay.
    Good Luck,         DoN.
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"Wholesale Tool Company, Inc.". http://www.wttool.com Locations in MI, IN, MA, NC, OK, FL and TX. I've only been in the MA store once, my last mailorder was shipped from MI. --Glenn Lyford
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I'm on the East Coast, in Charlotte, NC. :-) Their name is actually Wholesale Tool but for some reason they go by WT Tool and their Web site is http://www.wttool.com. Their site sucks because it's slow and the search feature is useless for most things but otherwise they're good to deal with and have a good selection.
I'm not sure why they're not better known but I've noticed more and more people mentioning them in this newsgroup and I seem to recall one of their employees posting a few times. They list 7 stores on their site with one in MA. Their printed catalog is about 1/4 the thickness of MSC's so they obviously don't carry as much selection but it's really nice having them so close by.

I've ordered from MSC 3 or 4 times and in all cases the package has arrived the next morning, usually around 9AM. The down side to this is that they didn't offer me a choice in shipping methods and prices so unless I'm ordering a fair amount it drives the cost up quit a bit.
They have an office here in Charlotte, but they don't stock anything here. I think it's usually shipped from Atlanta.
Best Regards, Keith Marshall snipped-for-privacy@progressivelogic.com
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The site comes up very fast for me. The search engine found what I was looking for and gave me a long table of items. I'd try it again.
Remember you might be accessing it via a slow node or a storm strewn region. e.g. noise on the line and multiple re-sends.
Martin
Keith Marshall wrote:

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The search engine found what I was looking for and gave me a long table of items. I'd try it again.<<
The site comes up relatively quickly for me as well and I have noticed that their search engine has become quicker lately (although it's slower now than it was a couple of days ago) but a long table of items is rarely what I want, especially when the site isn't performing very quickly. I want to be able to narrow down my search to just a few items so that I don't have to browse a long table to find what I want.
For an extreme example search for "milling machine" It brought up a list of "3/4 Shank Boring Mill & Screw Machine Drills" and I had to go through 9 pages of those before I got to another item and I gave up then rather than see just how many pages of items that were not milling machines was provided. It doesn't even give many any indication of how many pages it's listing. I just have to keep hitting the Next button to see what comes up next. I've seen worse but I've seen MUCH better!
Go to http://www.mscdirect.com or http://www.mcmaster.com and see how they compare.

e.g. noise on the line and multiple re-sends.<<
Since they have a store in my city I visit their site often so that I'll have part numbers ready when I go to the store and it's ALWAYS that way. I doubt storms have much to do with it. :-)
Best Regards, Keith Marshall snipped-for-privacy@progressivelogic.com
"Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." - Will Rogers (1879-1935).
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    [ ... ]

    Hmm ... out of curiosity, did you have the quotes around the search term? If so, it should have looked for those two words separated only by whitespace. However, without the quotes, it searches for the first word, and then searches those found for the second word (and apparently it was matching partial words, if searching for "Milling" brought up "Boring Mill". :-)
    Of course, my description above is based on how eBay searches work, and some others may not work anywhere near the same.
    Perhaps look for "Machine, milling"? :-)
    Good Luck,         DoN.
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search term? If so, it should have looked for those two words separated only by whitespace. However, without the quotes, it searches for the first word, and then searches those found for the second word (and apparently it was matching partial words, if searching for "Milling" brought up "Boring Mill". :-)<<
You're right, it does work better that way but that was only one quick example that I tried to prove my point. There have been many times when I've searched for something where I knew what the description was from the catalog but it didn't find it at all. :-(
Best Regards, Keith Marshall snipped-for-privacy@progressivelogic.com
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    O.K.
    And based on another followup, they are not anywhere near me (Northern VA -- near Washington DC, so Southern MD would be near, too.)
    [ ... ]

    An interesting thing which may indicate a change in policies. Until the last, the catalog was shipped by UPS, just like the merchandise. The most recent catalog arrived by USPS instead.
    Certainly, those in Canada have reason to avoid them because of their insistence on UPS as the shipping agent.
    But for me, they are a good choice.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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Until the last, the catalog was shipped by UPS, just like the merchandise. The most recent catalog arrived by USPS instead.<<
The last package I got from MSC was a year or so ago and it arrived in a box truck. I don't remember what the markings were on it but it wasn't a UPS truck.
BTW, your catalog may still have been shipped via UPS. I recently ordered some clothes from another company and they were to ship them via UPS. They emailed a tracking number to me and for about a week the UPS site only said that they had received notification that they would be getting a package but hadn't yet received it. Then one day we noticed our mail carrier walking up the driveway and when we looked by the front door the package was there.
I asked the company I ordered from what had happened and they said that UPS uses the USPS to deliver some packages! The next day I checked the UPS site and it still showed that they had not yet received the package.
Best Regards, Keith Marshall snipped-for-privacy@progressivelogic.com
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DoN. Nichols wrote:

This is it, crummy but cheap, no spares. I go with 3/8" shank because they fit both my Atlas 618 and 10x36 lathes, and on the 10x36 I don't have to lower the tool holder as much to be on center.

I haven't had this problem...yet. :^)

Looked at these, big bux and I don't go through inserts very fast.

(snip)
I think you make a lot more chips than I do lately. I have more budget constraints and buying 100 inserts means my heirs would get them. GBG!!
David
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    [ ... ]

    O.K. That makes a certain amount of sense. You're using the same size toolpost on both machines?
    Just for the fun of it, why don't set the tool on center on the machine which has the holder lower, then transfer it to the other machine, and measure just how high the adjusting nut is above the toolpost. You can probably make up a spacer to hold the tool on center at the higher machine without having to reset the height-adjusting nut. If you use only some tools on both machines, and others only on one machine, then keep it handy (maybe held with a magnet to the back of the toolpost), and hold it in only when using one of the shared tools. Otherwise, make a magnet part of it, and keep it on top of the toolpost (two of them to deal with the boring/facing dovetail as well.)

    This is with a small (5") CNC machine controlling the feed, and a bit too much wear in the (Nylon) gibs, allowing things to pull. I finally put an aluminum backing plate behind the gibs, and the wear is better distributed and much slower.

    You probably don't need them with the 6", and maybe even don't need them with the 10". I push my 12" (a Clausing, which is more rigid than the box-ways Atlas), so I am more likely to need the full support.

    Sometimes I do, sometimes I am focusing on other interests, and the machine tools get less use. But when I am using them, I want to be able to get the most out of them in the shortest time (except when using the shaper, which is by nature a lackadasical machine, and fun to just sit there and watch. :-)

    O.K. But they might thank you -- if they inherited your interests.
    Good Luck,         DoN.
    
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