Slightly OT - Who's being unreasonable? (Ebay metal content)

I recently purchased some stainless steel cut-offs from an Ebay seller in New York. You might have seen some of his auctions:

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Incidentally, he's also posted a number of solicitations for work in the News Groups, including one posted here a couple of years ago (however, as far as I can tell, he's never participated in any News Group discussions). Here is a copy of one of his NG advertisements:

[quote] Toolmaker for Hire I am a retired toolmaker with over 25 years experience in plastics, aluminum, and steels. Please email me with your needs, I will quote your job and lead time. Quality work, quick turnaround, fair prices, no job too small, thanks. [/quote]

In his Ebay auctions, the seller never mentioned the shipping methods used (nor did he use Ebay's shipping calculator), but he did write in his auction description: "Buyer pays actual shipping, I accept Paypal and money orders and ship in the US."

Since the cut-offs were neither excessively large nor overly heavy, I was surprised when my invoice showed a large shipping charge for the items purchased ($17.70 for UPS shipping on a total purchase of $27.99).

So I politely asked the seller if he would ship my items in one of the new USPS Flat-Rate Priority Mail boxes for $7.70 plus $0.45 for Delivery Confirmation (which I offered to pay so the seller would be confident that the package is tracked). I explained that I was paying by USPS Money Order, so he would be making a trip to the Post Office anyway to cash his payment.

The seller refused, saying that "the post office is very inconvenient." (Note: I looked up his address on Yahoo Maps. There is a Post Office only

1.7 driving miles from his location.) He also claimed that he was "not out to rob anybody on shipping".

I wrote back and--again, politely--explained that the Priority Mail boxes are free and the USPS will even deliver them to his location for free. I also explained that he can arrange for his Mail Carrier to pick up the package from his location for free, saving him a trip to the Post Office. I sent him the USPS Web links for ordering the free boxes and scheduling the free pick-up. I also offered to send him the pre-paid postage needed for shipment along with my payment so that all he would have to do is stick the stamps on the box and hand it to his Mail Carrier. In short, I did just about everything short of driving across country to pack the box up for him.

His reply was again to refuse (this time with no explanation).

Since he did not stipulate in his auction that he would only ship by UPS, it's my opinion that he's being unfair to demand that I accept the costs of his choice of UPS shipment, especially when I've made the less-expensive alternative so simple. I know this is a fairly small thing, but it just irks me to no end when people are obstinate for no reason (and expect me to pay the costs of their obstinacy).

So what do you think: am I being unreasonable or is he?

Regards, Michael

Reply to
DeepDiver
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What you are asking is not unreasonable. What he is doing is unreasonable. How is his feedback?

Since it wasn't outlined up front, it is a kind of a ticklish situation. You always have feedback to get in the last word. Good sellers will cave rather than get negative feedback, even when they are right.

Steve

Reply to
SteveB

Any idea of the total weight of the items? There is a weight limit n the Priority mail and each additional pound therafter gets pricey......

Seems more and more sellers on ebay try and make up for their losses when they do not get what they think they should have gotten for items they put up for auction by increassing costs for shiping and handling........I guess his rates are no worse than some rates advertised for products on TV........like $4.95 to ship a damned CD disk or $15.00 to have a 1 qt. bottle of some super cleaner sent by USPS.......

============================================== Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ } ~~~~~~ } ~~~~~~~ }

Reply to
~Roy~

As someone who sells a fair amount of stuff on eBay I'd say that it's not unreasonable for a buyer to request a different shipping method than what I specify... but I do specify. Since I do specify though, I also feel I'm being quite reasonable if I stick with my method. UPS and FedEx are a major PITA for me so I try and do everything by USPS. I think I've only shipped 1 package via UPS out of maybe 200+ and it was only because it was $20 cheaper.

But considering the fact that on the first listing of his that I looked at (from the link you gave) he states the following for shipping charge:

"US $3.95 - US Postal Service Priority Mail®"

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I'd say HE'S the one that's being unreasonable. :-)

I also find it hard to believe that UPS would cost $17.70 for something the post office will ship for $7.70 but the flat-rate boxes could make that much difference I suppose. If he sticks to his guns and does ship it by UPS I'd be sure and check the label when it arrives to see how much it actually cost him. Even then though, probably your only recourse is to leave negative feedback to which he will almost certainly do the same for you. :-(

The only other comment I have is that you should have asked him about this BEFORE bidding since he didn't specify in his listing how he planned to ship it. I know it's easy to say that now that it's too late but it's something I learned long ago when buying via eBay.

BTW, the fact that you're using a postal money order doesn't automatically mean that he's going to the post office anyway. I normally either cash them at my bank or deposit them into my checking account when I receive them so there's no need to take them to the post office.

Best Regards, Keith Marshall snipped-for-privacy@progressivelogic.com

"I'm not grown up enough to be so old!"

Reply to
Keith Marshall

Yup, I calculated the combined weight of all the pieces to be 12.5 lbs. (plus I figure another 1.5 lbs for packing).

Not for the new Flat-Rate Priority Mail boxes. This is a new service offered by the Post Office and it's really a great deal. There are two fairly large box sizes: one is 12" x 3.5" x 14" and the other is 11" X 8.5" X 5.5". Either box will ship for a flat rate of just $7.70 postage, regardless of destination or weight (up to 70 lbs max). Here are the details (scroll down to the bottom of the page):

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I would agree, except in this case, there were three auctions I won: two I used "Buy It Now" (so he got exactly what he was asking for) and the third I got at the opening price of $12.99 (the auction had a "Buy It Now" price of $15.00).

So it's not like he got low-balled on the prices.

- Michael

Reply to
DeepDiver

With all due respect, Mike, get real. Sellers on ebay make money on purchase price, and, sadly, they make money on shipping. My strategy is to use a different ebay account for buying than selling, if I have *any* misgivings about a deal. The account I buy from when I'm not certain about the deal has very little feedback of any kind, so if they don't toe the line I can threaten to slam them with negative feedback and not worry if mine goes from +2 to +1 or whatever.

There are many many items that routinely sell on ebay for 99¢ with $19.95 shipping fees. Yes, you can complain, and theoretically ebay will follow up on that because after all sellers do it to beat ebay out of their fees, but basically you are seriously shoveling sand against the tides. My workaround is the *only* approach I could think of to get any actual protection as a buyer. Some sellers are getting savvy about this and are starting to say they won't accept bids from sellers with less than X positive feedbacks, but this approach is completely ineffective when you snipe and win in the last few seconds. By the time he realizes who's won, you've won and it's a done deal.

Here's what I do when I get stuck like you just did. I figure you paid about a buck for shipping and about sixteen bucks for a good tough lesson you won't ever forget.

Grant

DeepDiver wrote:

Reply to
Grant Erwin

Thanks. It always helps to get an impartial opinion.

His feedback numbers were a bit cautionary:

Positive: 67 505 795 Neutral: 0 4 4 Negative: 0 2 3

Feedback Score: 1737 Positive Feedback: 99.5%

Members who left a positive: 1746 Members who left a negative: 9

All positive feedback received: 2472

I really didn't expect to have any problems with steel cut-offs, so I didn't research his feedback as thouroughly as I perhaps should have. Because here's a "zinger" negative feedback I found (after the fact):

NEVER rec'd, refunded ONLY 1/2, lost $, got nothing in return, CAVEAT EMPTOR Reply by gentoolco: USPS lost shipment, tried to be nice and paid him 1/2 his expenses, I'm out too!

So the buyer never got his shipment (for whatever reason), and the seller only refunded half the money.

Btw, this is why I almost always insist on some form of shipment tracking. In this case, I offered to pay for USPS Delivery Confirmation on the Priority Mail box.

I know. But I can see no justifiable reason for his denying my request.

The main problem with Ebay's feedback system (and why it's an unreliable indicator of a seller's actual performance) is because the seller can post retaliatory feedback even when the buyer is completely justified in leaving negative feedback. As a result, most buyers will not leave negative feedback for fear of having their own feedback rating tarnished. The only way to avoid this is if the seller leaves feedback first. But many sellers will no longer leave feedback until after the buyer posts feedback.

Regards, Michael

Reply to
DeepDiver

Snip...

I know that one trip to the post office is enough to spoil my day (:

Reply to
Jim Stewart

Yup, that one is simply 'whatever fits into a certain sized box'....even if you could fill it with lead, would be same price.

We use it fairly frequently these days--wholesale shipments to our tool distributers....basically the box (es ) are filled with aluminum plate with enough packing material to keep them from getting banged up.

Reply to
PrecisionMachinisT

For me, a trip to the local post office is often the highlight of my day. (It gives me an excuse to get out of the house.)

Also, like an ordinary check, a post office money order can be deposited to any of your local ATMs.

Harry C.

p.s. Beware of sellers seeking excessive shipping fees on anything that you buy on eBay. Check the fine print on their eBay posting, and figure that amount into your bid for their goods.

Harry C.

Reply to
hhc314

Not really impartial. I am a Power Seller on ebay.

Actually, not that bad for that many sales. When I see sellers that have

100%, I am suspicious. I recently had a sale for a pair of plastic hands that go on a lawn chair, or boat railing. One holds a beer, the other, a fishing pole. I had a picture of a lawn chair with a beer and a fishing pole. The first line of the description is "this is for a pair of hands". The buyer left me negative because he thought the chair and pole were included! And that with no e mail prior to posting negative.

As a buyer, I don't hold negatives against any buyer. I look at them and see if I can see what went wrong with the deal. Some people just can't be made happy. You can return the goods, shoot the salesman, and give them their money back, and they will still bitch!

That would have kept me from bidding on it right there.

Now, if you ship Priority Mail, and use your home computer to make the label, the tracking number comes free, and is right there on the half of the label that the seller keeps.

True, true. So just stick to the truth, and roll the dice.

Steve

Reply to
SteveB

I am a Power Seller on Ebay. We print our own labels. The postman picks up the packages at the house. We only have to go to the postoffice if it is an international shipment, and we have to fill out customs forms. We can even buy insurance on our computer.

The story about not wanting to go to the post office won't fly.

STeve

Reply to
SteveB

That's interesting. I thought about doing this myself, but wasn't sure it was allowed. Do you need two credit cards to do this?

Chris

Reply to
Christopher Tidy

Thanks for bringing that to my attention!

Yup, that's the beauty of the new Flat-Rate boxes. They offer two sizes, either of which will ship for a flat rate of $7.70, regardless of destination or weight (up to 70 lbs max). It really is a great deal!

I've gone through the metal weight calculator and figured 12.5 lbs for the stock, and guess another 1.5 lbs for packing material. Since he says he has daily UPS pick-up, then he gets preferred rates. Which means he should be able to ship a 14 lbs package to me for just $11.01.

But here's where it gets odd. He wrote: "Send the total for all (3) auctions, and if the actual is much different than the estimated shipping charge, I'll refund the difference. I belive the total shipping is quoted around $12.00."

(Actually, the total shipping quoted was $17.70.)

In any case, he claims that he's not trying to make money off the shipping, and that he will refund any overpayment. Given the circumstances, I have little expectation that he will hold true to that offer, but it certainly takes the wind out of the argument that his intention was to pad his profits by overcharging on shipping.

I usually do clarify such things in advance. But he seemed like a reasonable seller (stated "actual shipping charges) and I really didn't expect there to be this kind of problem. In fact, even now I can't imagine a reason for his obstinace.

I did some more research on this after my initial communication with him and discovered that bank deposits were an option. That is why I wrote him back and explained how everything could be done from his home or office (via free box delivery and free carrier pick-up, and with me mailing him the postage and forms with my payment).

But his position is even more odd considering that he offers Priority Mail on one of his other active auctions.

- Michael

Reply to
DeepDiver

I'm not gonna say anything (:

That's really the issue. Don't bid until you know the terms. If you do bid, you're signing a blank contract.

Reply to
Jim Stewart

Dollar by dollar, I sell much more on ebay than I buy, which may bias my viewpoint. In my opinion, both the buyer as well as the seller are unreasonable. The buyer is unreasonable because he wants more from the seller than was promised by the auction. The seller is unreasonable because he does not want to take reasonable steps to make sure that the buyer gets a sensible deal on shipping.

Personally, most of the items that I sell I sell at a stated, fixed shipping amount that is designed to make me a modest profit of a few dollars. The amount is stated in the auction and the buyers adjust their bids accordingly.

The only time when I sell at actual shipping is for very heavy items. In this instance, I try not to cheat my buyers. I overstate my estimates by 2-3 dollars just to account for the possibility of mismeasuring the shipping boxes.

Generally speaking, fraudsters do not have a 1000+, 99+% feedback.

i 318, 100% feedback
Reply to
Ignoramus633

or cashed at the post office, even better.

i

Reply to
Ignoramus633

same here. Half of the time they are making my visits difficult by inventing BS rules.

i
Reply to
Ignoramus633

I sell on ebay and frequently refuse to ship USPS. Yes Priority Mail boxes are free, but my post office frequently runs out of the medium sized boxes that I usually use. The small ones won't fit and the large ones cost more postage.

More importantly, not all post offices have a large metal tumbler where I can deposit packages after hours. That means I have to go during the day, fight for parking, and then wait in line to hand the package to a postal carrier. Maybe this isn't how your post office is, but the post offices in my area are.

Leave the package on my doorstep? Someone may decide to help themselves.

Wait for the postal carrier to come to my house? Am I supposed to take the day off work?

I would say the seller is not being unreasonable.

Reply to
AL

I would say that he should have used the shipping calculator and that he should have stipulated his shipping preferences in the description.

However, having said that, as a buyer in dealing with an auction like that, I would have asked him about this prior to winning the bid.

But since you didn't I'd say you are the one being unreasonable here. For example, there are certain commercial companies that ship everything via UPS or FedEX, and asking them to do the other won't get you anywhere except without a sale.

Lane

Reply to
Lane

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