Trade Unions

Well my ex works for the county jail. Her position has been taken off the books but she's grandfathered in. After several years of being about the only one there not in the union, she joined. Good thing. Some shit went down, inside political crap. She peripherally involved due to her position and I think the guilty party was looking to rub some of the crap off onto her somehow. If she'd not been in the union, they might have railroaded her out of there. But the union went to bat for her and was ready to provide legal counsel if needed. It didn't come to that, and the shit-storm passed her by. Her position btw is not being taken out due to being non-essential. She's Central Control at the jail. Nobody moves through any locked door that she hasn't unlocked. Virtually everyone there says she's the best they've ever had. The sherriff just wants the position staffed by deputies and one day that'll come to pass. Hardly a case of a union protecting a slacker.

But I know that does happen plenty in other cases....

Jon

Yes, working in a supermarket was my first job as well. Maybe the differance between us is that if I didn't work I didn't eat! I learned that at age 14, good lesson. I was and am a hard worker. All the employers that I've had would attest to that. But I also supported my union because that was a link in the chain to good wages, benifits, and security.

Another differance, might be, although I worked very hard and made myself valuble to the company, I never complained about how hard I worked. I was greatful to have food and health-care (I needed it when I was young!). I was, also, greatful to have a strong union and I helped make it stronger.

I was working in SoCA, the L.A. area. All that I know is that I have my old dues card right here. I've kept every payroll stub and dues receipt since I started working about 45 years ago. Still have them in boxes in my attic.

In any case, the important thing is if the dues were too high, campaign to lower them! It's not imposible, just takes hard work. In my 45 years I helped to lower dues twice. I also helped to raise dues once because my union needed the funds to stay strong.

I never said that ALL union workers work hard! What I can say is that the union that I belong to now wouldn't exist if the majority of it's members didn't work hard. We compete every day with companies that fight unions and their workers have no bottom to wages and benefits. And yet we are still growing. That must mean that with our higher wages and benefits we must be more productive, skilled, or effeciant, don't you think?

YOU ARE WRONG, plain and simple! The more that unions decline everyone will suffer. I suspect that you might be one of the first to squeal like a pig?

Because you work so hard?

Respectfully,

Al

Maybe we could all chip in a couple bucks and buy Al and Ron some tickets to China, where they could preach the merits of being a good union man or woman. Maybe their family will get a bill for a bullet. Maybe not.

It's sorta like religion. I don't actually give a shit about it, until some thick f*ck tries to sell it to me.

Al. Go away. Ron too.

Or don't.

But if you wish to stay, please stick to the program here. It's a recreational metalworking newsgroup. We do this, because we like it.

Sell your union goods to someone else.

If you wish to talk metalwork, I am certain tha you will not face a hostile audience. Wanna talk union work shit. Nope!

Thank you!

Cheers Trevor Jones

Actually Trevor, you would do better in China than I would. If you read (you can read?) anything that I wrote you will note that I spoke of free and democratic unions.

The Chinese hate unions just like you! Free unions have never done well in communist countries. And today they aren't doing well under our existing government in the USA. See any parallel?

Again, Trevor, prey tell... I've watched this newsgroup get consumed by political rants (where were you?) and cross-posting. I too have come here ONLY for the machining discussion.

Thanks but I don't need your money or your help. As I've said, I have a union

I can write. By default, I think that answers that.

China's feelings on unions, pretty much are the reason that I would wish you over there. Perhaps we would no longer have to put up with the sales pitch. By default, I do not think there ARE free and democratic unions.

Al, you misunderstand my motivation completely.

I don't care about unions. I do not hate them. Just don't give a shit one way or the other. Until someone is trying to sell them to me. Same as religion, or someone trying to sell me on voting for them instead of the other guy.

Then they are just an irritating sales pitch, which flavors my views of them, and them what's pushing them.

As to parrallels, all I see is the Communists learning at least a couple usefull lessons from the capitalists. The capitalists tried it, it worked for a while, then the system broke down. The Communists are trying a different route, that is not working out so well either. Not exactly a parralell, is it.

Then talk metalwork, and stick to that, and we'll get along. Maybe even enjoy each others company. As it were. But if you wish to talk nothing but union sales pitch, you can go in the bit bucket with those posters of endless political garbage, and no metalwork.

Good. Maybe they'll spring for the tickets. I hear the Chinese currency is on the upswing. With the selling you are doing, it sounds as if you could use the new members.

Good luck with that!

Cheers Trevor Jones

There's always exceptions to the "rules", Jon, and I have no doubt your good wife is one of them. I also understand that there are cases where the union has served a good and useful purpose, avoiding mistreatment.

Fact is, one of the guys that worked opposite me (three shifts) at Eimco was a union man, and a damned hard worker. He was old enough to be my father, and had at least one son that worked at the same facility. I know he had twin sons, one of which worked in the same shop, but I have no clue if the other was employed by Eimco, but in a different shop. It was a large facility.

The old guy was a skilled and talented worker, far better than I was at the time. His son was a different story, and was one of the "workers" (I use that term very loosely) that took me aside and told me to slow down.

I fully understand how much unions have done for American workers-----but I'm also quite aware of the evil that lurks amongst them, and how deadbeats can take a ride without exerting themselves. Makes it tough on the guy that's a union member and actually does his job. I realize many do.

Harold

Having gotten the inforrmation 2nd hand and not really caring to apply for the job just to see what they'd offer me feel free to check it out yourself. It's the new Safeway in Honolulu,HI Karl

That's not just union though. At my Mom's first job as a draftsman for TVA she was told to slow down by the other draftsmen. Karl

Oh, I understand fully. It's the nature of some people to make themselves look good by making everyone around them look bad. Drag them down below your level, so to speak. Unions tend to attract people like that. They need not be union members to exhibit that piss-poor quality that I hate about humans.

Harold

Ex-wife just to keep things clear... I understand both sides of the issue. Personally I would not work union unless I was friggin desperate for a job.

Years ago I worked in a sheet metal shop that was next door to a union heavy fab shop. Every now and then some newbie would complain about how much more everyone made at the other shop, and would talk about trying to unionize our shop.

Without fail, everyone that had been there a while, said if our shop went union, we'd all leave. That always ended the discussion.

In mentioning the ex's situation, was just trying to provide a bit of factual counterpoint to the rabid anti-union rhetoric even though I would avoid unions.

Jon

Chuckle!

Yeah, I understand. I have one of those, too.

Don't know how that got by me.

Harold

That is precisely right, and it says a lot about you that you use that as an argument to support your cause.

Look at it from the employer's perspective. They have invested the time, money and energy to not simply build a building and stuff it full of tools, but to find and woo potential clients, and determine the most effective way they can to produce the product they are making. They are there to earn money, not to provide you with a job. Your job is the after effect of their initial sacrifices in time and capital. Without their efforts, you would have no job to assert your "rights" in, and your vaunted freedoms would more than likely be asserted in an empty field. The size and wealth of the company you work for is a direct reflection of the ability of the man or woman who formed it, and they deserve, by right, to gain the greater share of the profits- as well as tell you what you may and may not do in their company. What you do on your own time is what is protected by civil law- when you are punched in and being paid, you are a tool that must perform it's function within established parameters, or you can expect to be sent out to the curb to be collected with the rest of the trash.

What did you do to earn any "right" to tell an owner of private property how they must dispose of that property? You are 100% correct- in a workplace, you have no right to freedom of speech or assembly. You are there to do your job, and you can choose to do it, with all that entails, or not. If you choose not to do your job, you have no right to ask for anything. If you do your job, you have nothing to fear. If you don't like the way things are going in your workplace, you have the same right that you would have as a guest in my home- if you don't like what is happening, your only legitimate recourse is to vote with your feet, and get the hell out of my face.

That pressure to perform or perish is what makes us strong. The "virtue" of protecting weakness, laziness, and unearned vanity is one of the most abhorrant ideals to ever have been saddled on humankind. Not only does it punish those who struggle to carve thier niche, but it also punishes those who are the supposed beneficiaries by allowing them to coast through their lives without ever finding their own measure through struggle. They end up as gray lumps of unworked material, dull and lifeless- when in a different situation, and faced with pressures they may not have chosen, life may have forged them into a sharp and gleaming sword. Nobody reaches their full potential in the absence of struggle.

While I may agree that some employers are not worthy of respect and admiration, many are. If you find yourself in a situation where your particular employer is not worthy of your time and efforts for whatever reason, it is incumbant on you to find another- or to develop the means and methods to employ yourself and others. In no case is it sensible or even desirable to force the hand that feeds you to obey your whims simply because you seek to avoid effort.

Maybe if there was such a thing as a vibrant labor movement, you'd be right. But what I see is a bunch of whining prats who seek to earn rewards without expending effort. Take a hard look at your extreme "classes" How many people do you know who do not own at least one television, a car, a place to live, adequate food and clothing, clean drinking water, and any number of other luxuries? Just because nobody provided you with a limosine and a private jet to make you *feel* special, that doesn't mean you are being abused- and if you are being abused, then it is not only your right, but your duty as a free man, to find another way to earn your bread.

The problem is that we *do* see. We see what you're advocating, and that it is precisely the way you describe it. The difference is one of morality. I don't feel that I have any right to gather up a posse and force the guy who signs my paycheck to do what I want him to do- you do. Better hope you actually *do* know what is best for your company before you start making demands, or you are slitting your own throats as well.

Prometheus,

That was one exceptionally well written response. Saved it to my R.C.M. folder!

I have never tried to force any significant changes upon any employer. If I don't like the way I'm being treated, I tried to address this fact. If the situation wasn't resolved, I left. Sometimes this took a while, but I just sucked it up best I could until I found something better.

Jon

Yep------same in my case. When I found conditions less than appealing, I moved on.

Moved on, to me, became working for myself. I know my capabilities, and I know I'm reliable. I also function best under trying conditions----without a moron giving me senseless instructions.

I have never understood the concept of an employee expecting his share of the spoils from his place of employment. Didn't he get that when he accepted his job? Wasn't his pay his reward? What right would anyone have in earned profits when they had invested nothing in their job aside from a lunch box?

If an employee expects to share in profits, are they equally as prepared to turn back some or all of their pay if the project turns negative, and there are no profits? If not------why not? What is the employee risking in a venture where they contract to sell their time to the employer?

I'm of the opinion that unions are the downfall of humanity-------for they reward the deadbeats and punish those that contribute. Sort of sounds like the US government these days, eh?

Thanks, Prometheus-------very eloquently stated.

Harold

I have the following philosophical outlook on life:

EVERYONE IS EXACTLY WHERE THEY WANT TO BE, DOING EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT TO DO, WITH EXACTLY WHO THEY WANT TO BE WITH AT ANY MOMENT IN THEIR LIFE. WHENEVER THEY DON'T WANT ONE OF THESE THINGS, THEY MOVE ALONG.

Wanting something more than you don't want it can cause you to leave a job, leave a geographical location, leave people, etc. We take the thing we want most, and we pay attention to the thing we love most.

As an example: Alcoholism and AA. Fucking bullshit. People who drink too much merely haven't found anything they want more than booze. That analogy can be transferred across the board to any situation. As you say, those who don't want to suck it up and move on just don't want it bad enough.

Steve

Same here, 10 years now. The fact that I'm not doing very well is due to chosing to live where I want to, which is not a good place for manufacturing, or most any other productive business outside of building and selling palacial mansions for city slickers....

Place I worked at for 9 years, had it's ups and downs. Few times I think I ought to have punched my boss and left, but there were good things too. I was employee #4 in a company that went on to employ 70 some workers. I remember when times were slow, boss borrowed money from his folks to make payroll. Not wanting to lose skilled workers, he'd have someone move a machine to sweep the floor underneath, paint the walls - again, or dust off the tops of light fixtures. More than a few times he'd spend long hours at night or weekends fixing his cars because he couldn't afford to pay a shop.

As the company grew and was starting to really do well, he bought his wife a new car. Right away the bitching starts.... "He buys his wife a new car and I haven't had a raise in 8 months..." An oft heard refrain was, "I'll work harder if he gives me a raise".

Sometimes it was a toss up which I despised more, my boss or some of my coworkers....

Jon

Can't really agree with this. Not completely... Everyone is where they are, doing what they are doing, by CHOICE. Not leaving a bad situation because one feels one has no choice, does not mean they want to be there. But one always has a choice, even if that choice is to walk away from everything and just live on the street. Or committ suicide. Both are choices and I've faced them myself. I managed to find better, alternate choices.

One just needs courage to make a choice and follow through with it. But many people have been psychologically berated and belittled to the point they feel powerless and have no choices. I feel for these people, for a few times I've almost fallen prey to that myself.

Jon

Without the union you would have become more capable of doing things for yourself and not relying on other people. Your character would be stronger. You would be a much better person than you are now.

Oh, now you're over the top. He sounds as good as anyone here -- better, in fact, than the smug and sanctimonious jerks who think they're better than he is.

Here's a key fact, sparky: Without unions, you'd be making a fraction of what you're making now. The only thing that makes you worth what you make is the fact that unions raised the bar for more than a half-century so you could settle back and take advantage of what they did. Before unions, the idea of any kind of worker making it into the middle class, which was made up of professionals and merchants at the beginning of the last century, was laughable.

It was the wages paid by union shops that made it possible for non-union shops to pay you more, for two reasons. First, they set the competitive standard for costs: all your employer(s) had to do was to shave a little bit off of the union wage/load costs to be able to beat them in the marketplace. Second, their wages established a floor, at some percentage under what they were making, that your non-union employers had to pay in order to attract workers.

Your entire working life has been parasitic upon unions. There isn't a person here who works at a non-management job who isn't in the same boat. And it isn't a matter of opinion. It's a matter of whether you know labor and economic history or not.

-- Ed Huntress