Yes, and how about condensation? I mean you will have water inside dripping (and it will *really* drip) off the walls.
Try to inflame it. It really isn't that bad! The thicker the better. OSB is cheap like hell, can be painted and you can nail/screw to it wherever you want. But **please** reconsider the isolation, or you'll regret it. Ask an architect (he should know the math and physics behind it) about dew-point and isolation layers.
Containers here are *very* common. 3 to 4 stories high. Workers living in there, constructors on-site office etc. A friend had is office made out of two containers (selling trees an plants). They were "tropical isolated". In summer it was hot like in the dessert, in winter like in the arctics. Well, but then he had no lathe in there rusting. :-)
Not that I think the container-idea is bad (it ain't at all), and not wanting to tear you down.
Insulated yes, but was your friends container conditioned space? A normally constructed and insulated house will experience the same humidity issues if it is left closed and unconditioned (no heat / A/C). An insulated container that is kept at a controlled interior temperature will not experience this issue any more than a house maintained at a controlled interior temperature will. The container also does not have a shower or kitchen pumping humidity into it like a house does. The only source of moisture in the container will be one human intermittently working in it, something normal ventilation will readily handle.
Sorry, wrong. You do have a temperature gradient looking at a section through the wall. At the place where the temperature drops below the dew-point, you'll get condensation. Preferably, that happens within the insulation-material, supposing it can retain and transport humidity. If that is not the case you get condensation. And this will be exactly at the inside of the metal container. Styrofoam and that stuff glued to the inside of a wall is *the*
*worst* you can do. Except you are out for mushrooms.
The difference to a house is, that the dew-point is *in* the brick-wall (oh, you know what this is? ) and the brick can transport humidity to the outside, especially if there is a humidity-stopping layer (or not as good transporting, or much longer distance) on the inside of the wall. You get a much better climate and much less humidity this way. No dehumidifier needed.
Sorry, wrong again. Relative humidity is the point. Warm outside, cool inside and you ventilate -> moisture inside. Just have a look at the water running out of A/Cs.
You're already cutting into your 8' ceiling height with a couple inches of insulation, ceiling FRP and presumably some lights, you don't want to loose more with a false floor. The container floor can support a forklift with cargo, vastly heavier than a Bridgeport, and more concentrated on the four wheels as well. Definitely secure the machines well, but the existing floor is plenty strong. Add temporary bracing to top heavy items like a Bridgeport pre container move. Since under the
25mm floor is steel C channel framing, you can readily run cables under there, ideally in sealtite type flex conduit.
Moisture doesn't magically appear to condense, it has to come from somewhere. Neither the steel container, not extruded polystyrene insulation are permeable so nothing of significance is going to happen in the space between them. The interior surface is very unlikely to be at dew point in a conditioned space so nothing is likely to happen there either.
Again with the steel container, EPS insulation and FRP paneling you have a triple layer vapor barrier. Moisture outside stays outside, moisture inside stays inside (normal vents remove it).
Look at moisture running out of an A/C after it has been running in an enclosed space for a while, and dehumidifying the space. Unless you're doing something really stupid to allow a lot of moisture into the space, it will remain dry and the A/C will operate more efficiently since it won't have the added load of condensing moisture out of the air as well as cooling the air.
Might I suggest that each window have an opaque panel which could be swung in place or inserted to keep people from being able to see what is in there when things are closed up? No sense in tempting people -- depending on your neighborhood, of course.
OK so in my situation i could use a little feedback here
there are 4 passive vents in the corners of my container
i know i'l likely need to leave these vents through but they will allow humidity to enter too
Because of my Climate i know i will need both Heating and Air conditioning
Nick's statements about the dewpoint are valid the Container cools faster than the ambient air once the sun is down so it will draw dew if it cools past the dewpoint i will need to seal the inside walls with a vapor barrier that is a given and i will need ot take steps to de-humidify the shop. the AC itself I primarily use to drop the humidity to make work bearable rather than needing the temperature itself to dropit seems that using Styrofoam the possibly after the electric is run to call in a sprayfoam guy to seal behind it.
Should i fork over a little more for an AC to let it automatically run to prevent condensation?
Even if i'm not there if it senses that the dewpoint could be exceeded it will trigger and dehumidify the shop?
I'm investigating elsewhere too but there are no container conversion experts local to me.
If i have to do something fancy to prevent condensation so be it, my tools are worth an ounce of prevention and a few dollars of dehumidifier runtime
I'm not too worried in this neighbourhood especially since form a shop and thievery perspective the SNAP ON truck presents a far more appealing target than my little shop. But thats not to say that its not a very good preventative measure.
Same on my non insulated 40' container. It sits through new england seasons and has yet to have a moisture problem inside.
Loose those vents, they won't be adequate for your intended use. Install "real" venting in the form of RV vents, regular roof vents, or similar.
You *do not* need a vapor barrier, it will accomplish absolutely nothing. A vapor barrier is used in residential frame construction because the wall materials are all permeable, steel is *not* permeable, nor is extruded polystyrene insulation, nor FRP paneling.
Run electrical in surface mounted EMT conduit. See the great power upgrade 2006 on my site:
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for an example.
There is no reason to seal behind the polystyrene insulation that you glue in place, other than for additional insulation and even that is marginal. The cavities formed behind the insulation are sealed chambers assuming you make proper use of the adhesive. None of the materials involved are moisture permeable and the humidity in that chamber will always be the same as the day it was sealed.
A separate dehumidifier if you find a need for it after you've completed the rest and monitored it for a while. The separate dehumidifier will function when heated in the winter to remove moisture tracked in from snow on your boots.
Yes, separate dehumidifier. Before spending money on it however, spend the $30 for a temp / humidity gauge with min/max and see what the spans really are.
Again, review what I've posted and just monitor to see if you have an actual issue. Residential wood frames, plywood or OSB sheathing, fiberglass insulation and drywall are all moisture permeable, steel, EPS insulation and FRP panels are not.
A container is no different than any other steel framed, steel skinned structure - nothing magical. Just contact any of the numerous steel building companies and ask them how they handle insulation and climate control in one of their smaller buildings.
That, or it's simple enough to turn a panel of pre-made wrought iron fencing into window burglar guards. Saves getting the spacing right.
A quick release for emergency egress isn't that difficult to wangle up - I'd go for something drop dead simple like a pin through the wall and a mouse clip release on the inside, hinges on the other end. Or if you can get some huge Dzus slotted pins...
You put a shroud over the pin releases so a burglar can't break the glass and reach in to release the grille. When you need out in a hurry you simply step on a shrouded floor level pedal to pull both mouse clips out at once, and free the open-window end of the grille.
No, I understand what ventilation does just fine and I've indicated the OP should be installing proper vents.
You don't seem to understand the difference between conventional frame house construction where pretty much all the wall construction materials are moisture permeable and an additional non permeable vapor barrier (usually plastic sheeting) is used to prevent interior moisture from humans, showers, kitchens, etc. from getting passing into the wall structure and saturating the fiberglass insulation. The permeability of the materials on the other side of the vapor barrier allows the moisture level on that side to settle to the average humidity of the exterior environment.
The steel of the container, extruded polystyrene insulation and EPS wall paneling are all non permeable - all are vapor barriers. There will be absolutely no moisture migration through these materials. The humidity level in the small spaces formed by the corrugated steel side and the EPS insulation will stay constant since they are sealed cavities (subject to reasonable care with the adhesive when installing).
During the summer when you have A/C running in the 1,280 cubic foot shop, the likelihood if the interior humidity level and temperature, and wall surface temperature being just right for moisture to condense on the walls is very, very low. The point where the temps might be at dew point will be somewhere within the non permeable wall structure where it will have no effect at all due to the inability of moisture to reach that point since all the wall materials are vapor barriers.
The OP's container a.k.a. steel building lacks most of the moisture sources found in a residence (no shower or kitchen), lacks the permeable wall materials found in a residence, and lacks the materials such as fiberglass insulation that could be damaged by moisture passing through permeable wall materials. Installing some sort of plastic sheeting vapor barrier over the steel wall and EPS insulation would be positively idiotic since it would accomplish nothing putting it over two other vapor barriers, and under FRP paneling, a third vapor barrier.
I have a 10 foot container which I have heat-insulated and held for around 6 years now.. Temperatures from -30C to +35C with snow at winter.
The most important gotcha is that the FLOOR is a big heat loss at winter.. I installed styrox plates to exposed metallic surfaces at the bottom, and prevented airflow to under the container with wood plates.
I did the heat insulation by welding bolts to the inside walls and ceiling every 60cm and then bolted wooden 2x2 to the bolts. Between the 2x2 I put glass-wool.. On top of all that cheap chipboard plates and painted the walls. I left a slight opening between the plates and the floor, for air access. Has worked wonderfully.
I painted the outside with green metal-roof paint with brush.
Here's some pics from inside the container, mostly showing the white chipboard walls:
Gunner thanks for the tip..... Unfortunately the Habitat Re-Store had nothing but wood doors and the salvage yard i found had only a few steel doors and they were mainly steel framed GLASS doors. Mind you they had some interesting unloved tools but thats a project for another time
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