Why do people "compete" off-time

Some people believe they look better, when they bad mouth others. To me, it just makes them look like bad mouthers.

When I was about 19, I took my Dad's car to a muffler repair place. They did the warranty work, which had originally been done by another store that was no longer there. They spent the time knocking the "mickey mouse outfit" and "no good" guys at the other store.

Shortly after that, I needed my phone line repaired. They sent out a guy, who climbed up the ladder and found some damage. Being cooperative, I gave him an opening "Was it the no good guys on the other shift, the mickey mouse outfit?" or some thing I said. I hope to always rememeber his reply. Old guy, on a ladder, looking down from the wire.

"Never knock your fellow worker!"

And, in the decades since then, I have tried not to.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

I had an experience. I am not a "precision machinist" by any stretch. My primary offering to my customers is innovation, and machines that work to improve their productivity.

Last year, I built a press and explosives composition mold for a friend way-far out west. When he started using it, he was using pressures several TIMES higher than what I had designed it for (and what he spec'd out), and the mold cavity liners were slipping a little bit on ejection of the product. So I made him a liner retainer plate that would hold against that extra pressure. It has 54 cavity holes and 74 counter-sunk bolt holes in an array that will surround all the cavities and hold the plate against the liner flanges (they look a bit like a flanged oilite bushing, but made of Acetal). I machined the cavity holes, and drilled the bolt holes in a single clamp-up on CNC.

His task was to take the mold body to a local machinst (who only normally repairs auto parts, but has a couple of general-purpose machines), and have matching holes drilled and tapped to fit the plate. The guy said he could do it, and even had "CNC software" so he could match the array exactly.

The next day, the machinist called him to say that all the holes were "all over the place; up to 30-thousanths off-centers", and he was going to have to take the plate to a better-equipped shop to have all the holes probe-plotted to make sure his holes lined up. His new price reflected that. He also told my friend that "next time, you need to hire someone who knows what he's doing." (ouch!)

So, the liners have finally worn out. Expected by both of us. They were made of acetal, for pressures far lower than what he is now using. We're going to change to a high-lubricity brass. He sent the whole mold back for me to re-line.

I've been chasing this inaccuracy problem ever since his first phone call about it, and could never replicate anything remotely like it. My only issue with my machine is poor surface finish, because I have yet to rebuild my spindle. But when I got the mold, the first thing I did was take it apart and start measuring. I deliberately did not refer to my drawings or the CAM files. I just started manually measuring holes, center distances, and diagonals all over the plate.

Everything is dead-on to within a half-thou in every direction (the best my measuring tools will do for distances larger than 2"). There are no center-to-center variations, no cumulative changes across the length or breadth of the plate, no out-of-square condition... nothin', zip, nada.

Then I checked the drawings and CAM files. They exactly matched the physical part.

He and I don't compete; we're fifteen states apart and do different things. Maybe he thinks we do.

Why? Why do people do this crap? Is it just the bux, or is it trying to build themselves up in their own eyes?

Damn. Well, at least I know my mill isn't misbehaving, after all.

LLoyd

There may be a tendency for some people to be too quick to point out the apparent incompetence of others since they think that shows how superior they are.

But more specifically, precision measurment of a complicated piece is something that has to be done slowly and carefully -- with a lot of thought -- even if you are using a CMM. This other machinist had no incentive to be careful with these measurments. Had this been his part, I am sure he would have redone those measurements several times before rejecting the part. As it was, he probably he had some problem with his metrology setup, or his assistant, but he had no reason to want to track down any problem.

Lloyd >> I'm wondering why the hell people who don't overlap one- Lloyd >> another's market still have a need to "compete" with others. Lloyd >> Mostly I'm talking about building up one's image at the cost Lloyd >> of belittling another's.

I don't understand. Can you be more specific, Lloyd?

Lloyd > Winston, you're a mook.

Lloyd > You don't perceive how oddball, eccentric, and totally Lloyd > IMPRACTICAL your waste-of-energy refrigerator-dehumidifier is. Lloyd > You're like the Walter Minto of energy conservation!

Lloyd >> Why? Why do people do this crap? Is it just the bux, Lloyd >> or is it trying to build themselves up in their own eyes?

I don't know why that is, Lloyd. Probably a manifestation of deep - seated insecurity.

:)

--Winston

Snip...

Snip...

The answer is pretty clear. That "machinist" couldn't measure anything with better than a 30 thou accuracy.

Winston fired this volley in news: snipped-for-privacy@news1.newsguy.com:

So, on the one hand we have a preposterously wasteful suggestion made. A likeness to a well-known someone else who made equally preposterous (and similar) technical suggestions was stated.

Then there's the deep-seated insecurity thing about stashing, rehashing, mentally reviewing, and never forgetting the slightest of slights. It's called "holding a grudge", and usually indicates an unsettled mind.

vs.

On the gripping hand, we have a part with no observable defects that matches its design and works as intended, but is claimed by the examiner to be poorly made by someone who doesn't "know what they're doing". That was a deliberate attempt to damage someone's business by discrediting their skills.

Yeah... that's a 'balanced comparison', to be sure, Winston (in a goofy, aberrant-mind sort of way.)

(geesh!)

LLoyd

...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

One possibility I haven't seen mentioned is that the guy under-quoted the job and needed an excuse to increase the price.

Ned Simmons fired this volley in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

That could be it. Embarassment over not being able to do it for the price, so making up an excuse.

I didn't think of that one.

Lloyd

This would be my most likely guess also.

No, it's:

Lloyd >"oddball, eccentric, and totally IMPRACTICAL", remember? :)

I agree that it is oddball and eccentric. It is neither wasteful, impractical or preposterous, however.

Your unwarranted slight is forgiven, Lloyd. :)

--Winston

Or he was looking for a way to charge the snot out of the job.

Which is something Ive found more than once. I refused to do service for 2 companies for doing something like this to other clients of mine over the past 15 yrs.

Both times..the issue came up..I was called in to diagnose a "bad machine" and I took it very very seriously.

I found the 2 companies were trying to assfuck the client for more money..in one case close to $100k..the other..for $25k

When I went to the owner of the companies directly..they both got all slippery and weasely at which point..I told them both that the jig was up..Id written a formal report of my findings.....and they needed to find someone else to fix their machines for them...as I would not work for a crook nor a varmint. Ever.

I lost a fair amount of money over the years by doing that...but I have my pride and sense of self worth chugging along just fine.

Both went out of business about 7 yrs ago....and bad cess be to both of them

Gunner

One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that "violence begets violence." I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure

- and in some cases I have - that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy.

- Jeff Cooper

Over the years I've seen every unethical person go down. Some faster than others but it eventually catches up with them. It never pays to lie to or cheat anyone.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" Inscribed thus:

You have come across the "how to buck up the price and make work for a mate" syndrome !

A common opportunist trick... Quite dishonest !

We've been dealing with a lie and a cheat in our industry here in MN, trying to take everybody down. Looks like the tables turned on him this year, haven't seen many tears over his woes.

Karl

It generates business for the originator as well.

When adjoining neighbors have landscape work done by 'mobile entrepreneurs', the fence bordering our property always gets kicked in, accidentally.

--Winston

Sometimes it can take a gawdaful long time, though.

I'd believe that it could have been an honest mistake, except if that were so then when he had it checked by his friend he'd have come back and said "oopsie -- I'll just be eating some costs here".

I have, to my regret, misinterpreted things said to customers by other vendors and mistakenly bad-mouthed people. But when I catch myself at it you can bet that I'm as prompt as can be about rectifying my mistake.

Some people will prosper until judgement day, and then Christ will deal with them.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

Sometimes it can take a gawdaful long time, though.

Perhaps he was looking for an excuse to bid up the price--but a more likely explanation is that he simply made a mistake and couldn't bring himself to admit it. Feynman said that the highest calling of a scientist is to prove him/herself wrong--- but very few people live up to it. I always tell my kids that it's a sign of STRENGTH, not weakness, to admit to a screw-up, and it sometimes works... hopefully...