Model Engineer magazine - The future

Is there no inspiration from robots or from the teaching of CDT? Perhaps it is that CDT teachers are as unqualified to do their jobs as are the majority of maths teachers in Britland?

Perhaps it is that the children of today expect to buy everyth>

I think most of the problem stems from the recent changes with regard to access to information. I used to subscribe to MEW years ago, and a number of other hobby related mags ( Hi-Fi, aircraft, computers etc. ), but with the explosion of the internet it became increasingly difficult to justify the cost. Indeed, these days I only buy a computer magazine if there's a really decent program included on the cover disk...if there's something I think I ought to know, it's out there on a web page somewhere...or even just an email away.

When you add in forums such as ours, plus numerous others dotted about the web, it becomes even easier to source material - even to the point of other posters supplying raw materials and specific advice.

And it's not like kids these days are ambivalent about inspiration - witness how popular such TV programmes as Robot Wars and Scrap Heap Challenge have become to this generation.

If anything is needed at this point it's a 'champion'. Dear old Fred Dibnah held the throne for many years - but whilst he had undeniable appeal to a certain generation, he didn't quite have the 'wow' factor that kids need. No doubt there will be those quick to denounce such 'trivialities' - but that comes out of an inability to connect with kids on their level...and that's the very nub of the matter. Fred certainly inspired people, and was boundless in his enthusiasm and encouragement, but I rather feel his qualities worked better on people who already had 'the bug'. What's needed is a new champion, and the closest person we have to that at the moment is Adam Hart-Davis...a man who combines clarity of explanation alongside an exciting presentation. Kid's learn...and they don't even realise it. That takes skill, but in terms of getting down to the nitty-gritty of engineering even Adam doesn't quite go far enough.

It might sound a bit like a title for a Monty Python sketch, but the principle that has to be got across to kids is that 'engineering is fun' - and I really think that's beyond the scope of a magazine, especially these days when there are so many other things competing for a child's attention.

Whilst we all sit and wait for a shiny media boffin to come along, there are lots of things that can be done by those who already have the necessary skills in engineering. At the very least you can contact your local schools or education authority and declare an interest in how they go about teaching the subject to kids. If you hear about a local school having to shut down its engineering dept. - make a fuss about it, buttonhole the people who make the decisions and make your voice heard. Offer your services to schools. Plenty of schools run 'after school' clubs which are often run or supported by volunteers - but can only do so if there are enough people to supervise the club. As you might imagine, a poetry club can get by with just the one person taking the group, but an engineering shop's gonna need a few more pairs of hands.

Haven't got the time? No problem - there are lots of other ways in which you can make yourself useful. There's a guy lives in a nearby village who has a model railway set up in his back garden. Once a year he holds an open day for the benefit of the local primary school - and the kids love it. He took time out to accompany a group of schoolkids on a visit to Hollycombe Steam Collection last year...and really had the kids enthralled with tales of how all the 'old fashioned' technology was brand new and exciting to him when he was their age. It's about sharing the knowledge, passing on the enthusiasm.

You might also consider taking a few hours off to go do a talk at a school. I've done this a few times myself ( it's bloody scary though...kids can be merciless! ) and it's a great way to show kids what can be achieved with even a few skills.

It probably all sounds a bit piece-meal, but that doesn't mean it won't make a difference.

Regards,

I much prefer the term the Americans use, Home Shop Machinist. Model engineer smacks of well, model engineering but not all readers and owners of small workshops are model related blokes, hence the nice term, Home Shop appealing to me.

I started with just a small shop and gradually built it up but I have never built a model in my life. My original interest was in maintaining racing bikes and the necessary machine were bought for this. Many people who I know personally and many on this board also don't make models. The workshops are to support their other main interests.

So how many people who have an interest in old bikes, old cars, tractors, lorries and such like go into Smiths and pass by The Model Engineers Workshop in their search for Old Glory, What tractor etc. not knowing that there is an article inside describing just the weird bit they are mulling over getting fixed.

I feel a better name would appeal more to others of a similar interest and also help the advertisers out without whom these mags would not exist as the cover price alone cannot sustain a modern mag.

-- Regards,

John Stevenson Nottingham, England.

Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:-

D> >Given that in the Britain of today an "Engineer" is a thing of the past,

although I have built a few models in my life. I suspect that part of the trouble is that the ME and to an extent MEW is trying to appeal to at least three different animals and that in reality, Model Engineers, Home Shop Mechanics and Home Shop Machinists exist in different but overlapping worlds.

The ME is interested in making a model and therefore the "end" product is important to him/her. The engineering bit merely an enjoyable means to an end. Likewise, others who are supporting another interest (bikes, cars planes etc) also have an end product but it is not the manufactured/repaired part in itself that mostly interests them, that quite often disappears into the bowels of the main project never to been seen again. The title HSM on the other hand would tend to suggest to me that he/she is primarily interested in the machining/manufacture/repair process itself and an "end product" might not be that relevant. In this case it is the "means" that is most important. So for me if ME is to stay broadly based "Home Shop Mechanic" would be the most accurate (and possibly the least inspirational) description.

Taking Donald's point about the future of ME. Attracting all of these groups is why I think that it is vital that the range of projects covered by ME (?) expands beyond Locomotives. In my time of reading ME (1984 on ) I've read articles on Motorcycle renovation, Bicycles, War time ships, Barge Lifts, Workshop construction, Electric cars etc etc and I think these diverse articles are to be encouraged. The one thing that we all have in common is the use of lathes, mills, welders etc and when most articles about using these machines were removed to MEW I believe that in general, they have not remembered that an end product (not just another tool) is an important inspiration to many of us.

The other types of article that I found interesting (enough to take it of the shelf and buy it) in my earlier days were the Workshop visits, the stories of how it used to be (one in particular about the Swindon Works I seem to remember), Machine reviews (few and far between), Machine renovation and modification (and not only to the Myford), hints and tips etc, etc. Spreading these across two magazines means that some months neither has enough for me to take it off the shelf and pay for it. I have to admit that lately the MEW has on a few occasions been bought just to keep my set complete and ME has been left on the shelf. I'm sorry to say that for me Exhibition reviews particularly the competition results and Club reports have just filled the pages between adverts. Locomotive and other build series I read just to see how they did it or which machines/tools/technique they used.

I'm not sure if there has ever really been a "hay day" as suggested by some. I suspect that there are more lathes/milling machines etc out there in "amateur hands" than ever before and I would bet that a greater percentage of these than ever before have had no formal engineering training/education. What they need to start out with is plenty of simple basic techniques and projects obviously developing as they do. Trouble is, what the majority of "seasoned" (and loyal) readers want is ever more detailed and ever more specific articles on their particular interest. Difficult balance to hit! I agree with the point about the many sources of information but I must also say that after visiting some web pages, the accuracy and credibility of the information given is not that convincing.

Are the magazines getting worse or is it just that our particular interests are becoming narrower as we get older? I know the "commercial interests" would like to see the ME/MEW circulation quadruple over night (together with their sales) but is it really essential to the magazines (or their) survival? However, reaching out to the next generation of would be ME/HSMs and encouraging those without any exposure to engineering in school to take up the interest is vital. If we can't do that then we will certainly be a threatened species grubbing about after the last few remaining machine relics to work with. Our present Home Shop Machinery manufactures will find something else to make and sell. I'm not totally convinced that things are really that bad at the moment.

Best regards

Keith

D> >

John, for me the American description is closer to what I am interested in now although I have built a few models in my life. I suspect that part of the trouble is that the ME and to an extent MEW is trying to appeal to at least three different animals and that in reality, Model Engineers, Home Shop Mechanics and Home Shop Machinists exist in different but overlapping worlds.

The ME is interested in making a model and therefore the "end" product is important to him/her. The engineering bit merely an enjoyable means to an end. Likewise, others who are supporting another interest (bikes,

cars planes etc) also have an end product but it is not the manufactured/repaired part in itself that mostly interests them, that quite often disappears into the bowels of the main project never to been seen again. The title HSM on the other hand would tend to suggest

to me that he/she is primarily interested in the machining/manufacture/repair process itself and an "end product" might not be that relevant. In this case it is the "means" that is most important. So for me if ME is to stay broadly based "Home Shop Mechanic" would be the most accurate (and possibly the least inspirational) description.

Taking Donald's point about the future of ME. Attracting all of these groups is why I think that it is vital that the range of projects covered by ME (?) expands beyond Locomotives. In my time of reading ME (1984 on ) I've read articles on Motorcycle renovation, Bicycles, War time ships, Barge Lifts, Workshop construction, Electric cars etc etc and I think these diverse articles are to be encouraged. The one thing that we all have in common is the use of lathes, mills, welders etc and

when most articles about using these machines were removed to MEW I believe that in general, they have not remembered that an end product (not just another tool) is an important inspiration to many of us.

The other types of article that I found interesting (enough to take it of the shelf and buy it) in my earlier days were the Workshop visits, the stories of how it used to be (one in particular about the Swindon Works I seem to remember), Machine reviews (few and far between), Machine renovation and modification (and not only to the Myford), hints

and tips etc, etc. Spreading these across two magazines means that some

months neither has enough for me to take it off the shelf and pay for it. I have to admit that lately the MEW has on a few occasions been bought just to keep my set complete and ME has been left on the shelf. I'm sorry to say that for me Exhibition reviews particularly the competition results and Club reports have just filled the pages between

adverts. Locomotive and other build series I read just to see how they did it or which machines/tools/technique they used.

I'm not sure if there has ever really been a "hay day" as suggested by some. I suspect that there are more lathes/milling machines etc out there in "amateur hands" than ever before and I would bet that a greater percentage of these than ever before have had no formal engineering training/education. What they need to start out with is plenty of simple basic techniques and projects obviously developing as they do. Trouble is, what the majority of "seasoned" (and loyal) readers want is ever more detailed and ever more specific articles on their particular interest. Difficult balance to hit! I agree with the point about the many sources of information but I must also say that after visiting some web pages, the accuracy and credibility of the information given is not that convincing.

Are the magazines getting worse or is it just that our particular interests are becoming narrower as we get older? I know the "commercial

interests" would like to see the ME/MEW circulation quadruple over night (together with their sales) but is it really essential to the magazines (or their) survival? However, reaching out to the next generation of would be ME/HSMs and encouraging those without any exposure to engineering in school to take up the interest is vital. If we can't do that then we will certainly be a threatened species grubbing about after the last few remaining machine relics to work with. Our present Home Shop Machinery manufactures will find something else to make and sell. I'm not totally convinced that things are really

that bad at the moment.

Best regards

Keith

PS Sorry needed to delete my first reply as It is early in the morning and the brain isn't working properly - if it ever does.

That is very true, and probably applies to the majority of people who lurk and post on this group.

I have ME magazines from 3 eras, and the difference is quite marked, the best in my view being the 1950's to the 1960's, and it started going wrong on the 1970's onwards, when its ownership changed.

Peter

-- Peter & Rita Forbes Email: snipped-for-privacy@easynet.co.uk Web:

Is that just nostalgia? What do you think went wrong?

From my point of view the biggest mistake was to spin off MEW.

A re-combination with the addition of a few more quick projects for newcomers would do the trick I think.

Russell.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the range of items covered was far greater in the older copies, and the benefits of better reproduction in the 50's and

For example: I seem to remember that early drawings sent in by readers had to be redrawn by ME staff as they couldn't reproduce them for the print process at that time.

What went 'wrong' was the same as many other specialist magazines, including electronics and radio, you could buy things and get them into service far easier than you could make them. Practical Wireless, Practical Television and all the car magazines that dealt with servicing and repair, they all died because there wasn't the need for that information any more.

We had an Austin 12 van that needed careful cajoling on a cold morning to get it to get up and take us to work, now we stroll outside in a heavy frost, turn the key without even waiting for a cold-starting device and drive off. It's called progress I suppose!

Agreed, although I have never read a copy to my knowledge.

You'd need more than that, you need something more basic that gets people's imagination going, plus you also need youngsters that have the 'I want to get my hands on' urge.

My Father, his brother and my stepfather were all engineers in some form or other, so I had access to various workshops and hoards of goodies to play with, and it was at an early age so I was brought up with nuts and bolts, drills and tools, resistors and valves (tubes to our Colonial cousins!)

Peter

-- Peter & Rita Forbes Email: snipped-for-privacy@easynet.co.uk Web:

The sad fact is that most people can't or won't do anything for themselves. If they have a hobby it's essentially exercise for the Credit Cards, see model (railway, aircraft, cars) magazines passim. If they don't, its sofa and satellite.

John

Funny that, almost a parallel reason here! Though I was more into smokey two stroke racing Bultaco's and you your plodders ;-)

I still do the bike stuff though as welll as the bread n butter widgets.

I have been guilty of this;-) but not steam, i like steam but IC engines do more for me.

Hmm.. I got 14 bikes on the shed from 1925 to 1985. None of them Japanese. and not too many are British either! 1953 Austin Champ too taking up even more room.

Someone mentioned here about the schools no longer being able to teach the subject, I see that as being fairly true. I've even bought machines from local schools!

Sadly we have the playstation generation now, my nephews sometimes come over here and look on in awe of what goes on in the workshop, but I was doing it at their age! albeit at school. There is very little awareness now......

Wayne....

And usenet :-)

In message , Peter A Forbes writes

I guess so... I read the group every day but rarely post. I don't make models either, although I would if I had the time. I make (for a living) a type of musical instrument called Northumbrian Pipes. This is a sort of small bagpipe with a lot of keys on the bit you actually play, and a lot of close tolerance work is involved. My main lathe is a Boxford BUD,: I have all the usual sort of workshop problems and issues, hence my interest in the group. Cheers Richard

In message , Stephen Howard writes

Sorry to appear negative, but the above has no relevance to the current situation in schools (unfortunately).

1. Virtually all secondary schools no longer have traditional workshops. The lathes, millers etc. have long gone to be replaced with a small number of CNC machines mostly for demonstration purposes.
2. Decisions resulting in (1) above were the result of national policy and were not at the whim of individual schools. Blame the National Curriculum.
3. Nobody would be allowed to supervise pupils in a machine-tool (or hand-tool) environment without all the relevant Health and Safety qualifications etc. (I don't know what they might actually be), which would rule out most potential volunteers.
4. The same pressures operate on the primary school curriculum, with far less practical work reducing the skill level that pupils bring with them to secondary school.

As I say, sorry about all that, based on a long career in secondary schools, now over without regrets! Cheers Richard

Points taken - but then that makes it all the more vital that those of us who have interests and skills take the chance to seek representation in these places.

From my own involvement in primary schools I know the situation varies depending on the policy of the school - or at least how adept they are at broadening the curriculum.

I'd agree it's an uphill struggle, largely due to the dearth of practical people in the decision-making process...it's a rare governing body that has someone with practical skills on it these days

- and long gone are the days when craftsmen and women had any say with regard to central policy.

It's easy to blame the teachers, but as you yourself may well know it's not likely to be the teachers that set policy. Somewhere along the chain of command, someone has to stand up and make people realise that practical skills have for too long been given the cold shoulder in education.

As it happens I was going to write a letter to a local constituency MP about this very issue...but he got caught playing the Panzer commander and the milkmaid with a rent boy - so it's just as well I never started the letter ( under the circumstances, I think the phrase 'small tools skills' might have taken on a very different meaning ).

Regards,

In message , Stephen Howard writes

Couldn't agree more, and it's very frustrating for staff and pupils. Cheers Richard

It is a shame that these practical skills aren't being even introduced to young people at school these days. I remember spending most of my fifth and sixth form years whilst I was at the comprehensive in the "CDT" workshop, making bits and pieces. I even built a milling attachment for a unimat - which involved making aluminium castings as well! I thoroughly enjoyed it, and think it's a crying shame that I was probably amongst the last tranche of pupils to enjoy such things...

I'm pretty certain it was that period during my schooling which got me hooked on the engineering bug - I had previously only made small scale model railways. It was also very handy because, once we'd got to a certain level, I had to go out and find people who had the required skills to help me and show me what to do. One such person was the man from the LEA who used to come round and service the machines in the various workshops in the county - he spent a great deal of time in our school showing me the finer points of machining.

Whilst I accept it's better than nothing, just demonstrating the use of CNC machines to schoolkids is no substitute. I (and a lot of other engineers that I know) am certain that you can't easily teach someone to use CNC machines if they haven't got some idea of manual machining. Still, it's better than nothing, and I think initiatives like Denford's "F1 in Schools" model racing car project can only help.

Following apprentice-level training, and then a mechanical engineering degree, I've somehow ended up working in a University engineering department. There, the students get about 3 days of basic workshop training in their first year, followed by another few days doing a "Design Make and Test" exercise at the end of the first and second years. This is viewed by the academics as being enough practical training (too much, according to some of them!!). However, I mainly am involved with some final year students, on a project where they build a full sized, bike-engined racing car, which competes against similar cars from other universities. The students do a large proportion of the manufacturing work on the car, under guidance/supervision, so at the end of the project they've got a very good idea the various manufacturing methods, and hence of designing parts so that they can be made without too many problems, which are very important skills for design engineering. More importantly, they all agree it's the best bit of their project, and spend hours in the workshop (often into the small hours) lovingly building their car.

Unfortunately, not all our students are involved in the car project, and those that aren't leave for industry with very little idea of manufacturing, or design for manufacture. They can analyse something on computer till they're blue in the face, but can't tell you how (or if) it could be made! Without an element of practical training at some level in their education, it's our manufacturing base which is going to suffer (and already is).

Without making this too political, the government's push to get 50% of youngsters into university doesn't help at all - I see these students every day who struggle with their maths, and go on to get a poor degree, but who love getting their hands dirty and actually making stuff. It's just a shame that their aren't the apprenticeships about today, and so many people are pushed into universities.

Anyway, sermon over, I'm off to make some swarf....

cheers

Alastair

Stephen,

I think you may have hit the nail on the head there. The common conception of a model engineer amongst the modern fraternity (if there is any conception at all) is a bunch of old blokes who build steam engines. Let's face it, there is more interest in these things by people who have experienced or at least remember these things than those who have no association whatever.

To come out of the closet here; as a mere 40 something, I can't remember the things either and whilst I spend many hours appreciating the local railway and steam rallies, I find the endless enthusiasm to record the minute detail of a locomotive in ME as tiring as your local disenfranchised teenager probably does. Even their father's have limited knowledge or enthusiasm of/for these things and therefore the inspiration is not likely to come from (probably) the most influential person in their lives. For the record, I'm old enough to have a father with engineering related skills and interests and have had an apprenticeship which introduced me to the machine shop. Most, even just a few years younger would have missed out on this.

Unless we can find a way to grip their enthusiasm by providing things they can associate with, we're stuffed, which is why Robot Wars and similarly dumbed down tripe is our only current hope.

Not wishing to depress myself and others further but kids today have the modern mindset that says if you want an engine to power that fabulously quick model car/boat or a hyper-efficient model aircraft (which they are still 'into'), you go and buy one, life is too short to spend hours in the workshop building such a thing, just for the fun of it and even if you had the machinery and wherewithal. Time is limited, money is (relatively) plentiful and therefore, why bother. Model engineering to them is possibly just a means to an end which is just not viable in terms of money or time. Who's interested in endless dull historical artefacts such as steam engines? - they're for the equally dull history books.

You only need to look at the Model Engineer's exhibitions to see what I'm talking about. I was probably the youngest person at the last one I went to and whilst I find the characters endlessly fascinating, knowledgeable and so on, I have to admit I believe that your local 'yoof would have tried to top him/herself after the first hour.

I sincerely apologise for having such a negative view but as you say, the inspiration out there is either totally lacking or dumbed down to the point where young people would not even consider that this black magic is something they would want to or could get involved in.

With no engineering related experience coming from schools, no apprenticeships, a limited manufacturing industry to fire the imagination and no memory of the glory days plus the ability to buy off the shelf items that are superior to those that can be made the inspiration for young people is dying away, despite what the enthusiasts amongst us may try to engender. P**s**g in the ocean springs to mind!

Again, I apologise for the desperately negative view. If anyone out there can educate me in the error of my opinions, I am more than happy to be corrected ......... please ....... but at the moment, as unpalatable as it may be, I consider that we may be the last remains of a dying breed. :(

Regards

Mark

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I can't pick fault with anything you have mentioned above.

Maybe Dave Fenner has also seen the writing on the wall by allowing a fair amount of CNC related projects into the mag over his term, something the other editors didn't seems to take to.

I have grand children who wander into the workshop on visits but nothing attracts their attention as much as the CNC mill working away on it's own.

By writing his name on a piece of graph paper my grandson has grasped the basics of how G code works, just a list of point to point commands.

Whilst other countries have cheap labour, manufacturing is lost to us. Design and development of prototypes may be our only salvation in what was the manufacturing industry. I once tried to talk the MD of the CAD package I use to allow an older version to be released as a free cover disk. The idea being to teach the readers to use this package. D.A.G. Browns book on CAD drawing is so open ended, [ I won't use the term generic as that's the name of the old CAD system he uses ] as to be useless. You need to have hands on with A package or not bother.

For some reason or other they didn't seem willing to do this, why I don't know as that version is well dead but could have supplied an upgrade path to future sales.

It wouldn't be a lost cause as many of the drawing in MEW are that poorly drawn as to impossible to read.

-- Regards,

John Stevenson Nottingham, England.

Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:-

I would call it more of a realistic view rather than a negative one, ditto the comments from Robin and Alastair.

In some ways you can't blame the powers-that-be for shifting the focus away from practical skills - it's a throwaway society, and every new shipment from China brings ever more cheaper ( and better ) goods.

Expanding on the model boat analogy....as a kid I used to build go-carts. Nothing very flashy, just simple push-along jobbies...though I did manage to incorporate a ball race on my steering mech. Thing is, we'd have loved to have been able to bung small motors on these things...but as kids we simply couldn't afford them. Indeed, there weren't that many adults who owned powered lawnmowers - and you never saw scrap mowers at the local tip. These days I buy all my lawnmowers from the tip, and never pay more than a fiver for them. From an economic perspective I'd be mad to spend any sort of time faffing about with a dodgy Briggs & Stratton ( though I often succumb out of sheer bloody-mindedness ) when I could buy a perfectly adequate replacement for a fiver - and I guess that's how kids these days see such things. Why faff about making an engine for a model aircraft when you can buy a bloody good one for 'beer money'?

But then, as pointed out, what's the point in investing time and money in learning skills that have little or no commercial value?

If there's going to be a renaissance for young engineers it's clearly going to be based around the principle of a hobby, and 'hobby' is a word that's never carried that much clout.

But there might be hope. Back in the 80's the secondary schools were almost entirely purged of music tuition. Some soulless bod decided that it wasn't that important a subject and wiped out the infrastructure. Now though there's a general recognition that music ( and the arts ) is important - if only from a social perspective. Perhaps one day someone will come up with the idea that practical skills are just as important?

Regards,