The amendment to the Pressure Vessel regulations to cover model
engineering is covered, I think, by the paragraph below. This allows
us to build boilers for our own use, but not for resale (if I have
understood correctly).
"(3) For the purposes of these Regulations, pressure equipment or
assemblies shall not be regarded as having been put into service where
a person -
(a) being a manufacturer of pressure equipment or an assembly for his
own use; or
(b) having imported pressure equipment or an assembly from a country
or territory outside the Community for his own use
puts that pressure equipment or assembly into service otherwise than
in the course of business."
My question is; what is the situation where part of the boiler
construction is
done commercially? In my case I intended to have the silver soldering
done
by a model engineering company (but not formally EEC approved for
boiler manufacture). Presumably the same situation arises if
commercially pressed flanged plates or rolled tube is used.
If all the boiler is made commercially should it go thro the formal
approval process? Or does this only apply if the model it is fitted to
is
to be sold on?
Anyone know the correct interpretation?
regards
Dave Burrage
Which Pressure Vessel regulations? SI 1996 No 2092? SI 1999 No 2001? SI 2000
No 128? SI 2001 No 246?
Or SI 2004 No 568?
Quote correctly and in full please. Sorry, but
For a not-actually-definitive but
they-said-it-was-this-way,-so-if-I-got-it-wrong-it's-not-my-fault
interpretations you can ask the DTI for something quotable. They do
sometimes provide.
The HSE will more often oblige, but less definitively.
But don't get into any situation where you are referred between them. :(
I think the above clause is intended to cover the test and prototype work
done by manufacturers... The law might hold that despite the fact you had
made the boiler you where not a " manufacturer of pressure equipment ".
If you are building a boiler with a capacity of more than 2 litres and
intended to operate at more than 110 C .... ( 1.433 bar absolute 6.4 PSI
gage ), then you are exempt from the pressure equipment regulations1999 as
it is excluded in section 3, part 7 para 2 subclause ( b ).
I presume that this means such equipment is covered by separate regulations.
I think that if a firm did work on your boiler, it would be it's
manufacturer, and would be legally responsible for it's work... this would
mean it should have to certify the boiler before returning it to you.
My last firm was caught out by the regulations. When they made a minor
modification to a pressure vessel, it made them responsible for certifying
the vessel.
As they did not have the original documentation they where unable re certify
the vessel.... :-( scrap stainless steel going cheap....
Hi Peter
Thanks for your comments
I've looked at EC directive 97/23/EC. I think this is introduced into
the UK as Statutory Instrument 1999 No 2001. I may be mistaken about
the amendment, when I looked back at the standard I found the
paragraph I quoted in the main text.
I think there is a proposed amendment for Model Engineers but I've not
been able to locate it's wording.
I'm not familiar with this world of Directives, S.I's, standards and
amendments
I'm hoping for a bit of guidance from from someone more experience of
this area.
By way of background, I'm building a 7.25 g Sweet William. I'm about
to organise silver soldering of the boiler, which otherwise is made
entirely by myself. Unfortunately, at the club where I intend to run
the loco, the boiler inspector and club chairman are don't agree on
the procedure for soldering the boiler.
The unclear area's are
1 If there is some commercial work done on a boiler does it still
classify as a self built boiler?
2 If a commercial company solders a boiler do they need to be simply
competent or do they need EEC approval (I think this then limits the
choice of suppliers to the association of professional copper
boilermakers)?
I've put quite a bit of time amd money into the loco and boiler; the
boiler is too big for me to do myself,I'im a bit concerned about
taking the wrong route when I get it soldered.
regards
Dave Burrage
[Statutory Instruments 1999 No. 2001 is also known as The Pressure Equipment
Regulations 1999, hereafter informally "PER". Numbers here will be mostly
references to the regulations therein.]
I think so, but for example SI 1999 No 2001 9(1) applies, and 10 applies
almost no matter what:
"10. Subject to regulation 11, no person, who is not a responsible person,
shall supply any pressure equipment or assembly unless that pressure
equipment or assembly is safe."
I think that if the vessel is for a steam loco and is under 2 litres (and
less than 200 bars working pressure!) then those are the only regulations
that apply. I could well be wrong though, for instance there are lots of
regulations regarding transporting pressure vessels by rail that I don't
have a clue about.
11(b) relates to fairs and shows, perhaps that's what you are thinking of?
An often ugly and confusing world. The best guidance I can give is to ask
the HSE, then the DTI. You can read directives and SIs till you are blue in
the face, and you'll still miss one out, or miss that small line somewhere
that changes the meaning 180 degrees.
Often the first problem is to decide which set(s) of regulations actually
apply. Is the boiler covered by the ADR (possible) or the RID (slightly more
likely)? Is it as specified in 70/156/EEC? If so PER would not apply, and
the regulations are completely different - actually they are pretty much the
same, but they are in a different SI or three, and there are probably subtle
differences.
Neither of those is actually likely to apply, but you can nevcer tell,and
they and many other regulations would have to be examined in detail to tell
for sure - and I don't even know what half of them are.
Then once you have sorted that out, you have to decide which individual regs
from that set apply. And what they mean ...
By the way, EU Directives have no legal force at all on you, only on the
Government - but the government usually makes parts of them into law, often
by saying in effect "these parts of EU directive so-and-so are law", but you
have to read the SI's and the enabling Acts* to find out which parts, and
the details can be different. And you have to read the Directives, to find
out what the Acts and SIs mean!
*SI's and other secondary legislation can't in theory create an offence,
that's supposed to be the province of primary legislation - although
nowadays they often do, or attempt to. They can define the terms of an
offence though. Actually that's wrong, Parliament can do whatever it likes,
but .. people don't even agree on that point.
Even if you are willing to spend a lot of time and effort - and I mean a lot
- reading Directives and SI's won't give you definitive answers. Even then
there is interpretation, and case law, and so on, - and basically, there
often isn't any certain answer at all, and sometimes there are two equally
apparently correct answers that are completely contradictory.
This is how lawyers are rich.
I expect there are some model railway people who specialise in this area of
law - and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that they disagree.
I don't think (again I might be wrong) that that's about the regulations,
although it may affect the insurance.
NB I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. It's just speculation.
However -
Assuming PER and only PER applies, the solderers aren't placing the boiler
on the market, and they aren't putting it into service/ use, so none of the
conditions requiring to those activities (regs 7-8) will apply to them. They
may have a duty to see that the boiler is safe under 10, or perhaps to
comply with 9(1) though.
They also may have a duty to see that you do not commit an offence, but
that's stretching 24 to it's extreme limits, and there's 27 to protect them
anyway (24 is about joint liability and 27 is about due diligence, from
memory, I may have gotten the numbers wrong. A simple statement from you of
what you intend should suffice,and it's pretty obvious anyway).
Again, if PER applies, and is all that applies, and if you are the
manufacturer of the equipment (which I think you undeniably are, albeit
perhaps not the sole one), and if you are not putting it into service in the
course of business, then regulations 7-8 won't apply to you. 2(3).
As far as I can see regs 7 and 8 do not apply to anybody, and no-one has any
duty to see that CE conformity assessment or marking is done**.
Again, as far as I can see the only regulations which it would be an offence
not to comply with are 9(1) and 10 (they basically just say it has to be
safe, but read them). Again assuming that PER is the only relevant set of
regulations.
NB I am not a lawyer, that was not legal advice, and nor is this, nor any of
this email for that matter: If you want somebody to quote or perhaps blame
if it all threatens to go pearshaped, try the HSE (first), then the DTI.
Good luck!
BTW, if you are going to reply, please answer these two questions: what is
the capacity of the boiler in litres, and the maximum working pressure in
bars? There are some other considerations that may ease things, even if the
people are still getting sticky, and perhaps I could advise a bit better if
I knew those.
BTW2, I was told that it very recently became theoretically possible to get
any pressure equipment conformity assessed and certified post facto, perhaps
useful if you ever want to sell the engine; but that's only in theory and
nobody actually provides the service. This may be apocryphal, the source
wasn't very reliable.
I'm still not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. Been looking again at
this tho. The solderers has become "he".
Assuming he is a "responsible person"* - which I'd guess he would be at the
moment when he supplies** you with the part-finished boiler*** - then he
isn't bound by 10, which only covers supply by persons who are not
"responsible";-
he would normally be bound by 9(1) instead - but 9(1) doesn't cover supply
by a "responsible" person, only putting on the market or putting into use,
which he isn't doing, so he wouldn't be bound by 9(1) either :)
I don't think he'd have any responsibilities at all under PER, other than
the not-really-relevant-here ones under 24 I mentioned before. None.
He could be a complete cowboy. He could be a beerswilling part-time hells
angel. He could be a junkie crackhead. He could have Alzheimer's _and_ CJD.
He could be a looney scientologist pretend music producer crackhead junkie
with a 30 watt soldering iron.
He could even be - no, I won't say :) *"responsible" here means "capable of being blamed". The manufacturer of a
piece of pressure equipment would be a "responsible person", no matter his
morals or reliability, as long as he was "established in the EU".
If you gave him some bits of metal and he soldered them together, he would
be the manufacturer of the soldered item, and thus "a responsible person".
**he will supply it to you as he gives it back to you. Weird, but that's the
way the law is - f'rinstance if a policeman passes you a joint, you are
supplying him with it when/if you pass it back to him! Innit! ***which almost certainly isn't legally pressure equipment at that stage -
it couldn't hold any pressure, and it doesn't have the attachments needed to
make it a pressure vessel - but assuming it was
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