why is NASA editing these images??

I'm fine with your opinion, of course. But can you cite some (any) authority on this -- either as a matter of conclusion or one of theory? Just curious.

Jon

Reply to
Jonathan Kirwan
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Mostly, yes. In the UK it is usual practice to place punctuation within the quotation marks if, and only if, that punctuation is part of the quotation. So Tom's original text, which quoted simple words or phrases rather than something which included punctuation as part of the quotation, was entirely correct from the UK point of view:

2) To show a contraction from "You are", you would write "you're". "Your" shows possession.

and Lee's correction (the unattributed bit you quoted above) was (AIUI) entirely correct from the US point of view (except that he accidentally put a spurious ' right at the end).

Finding a single canonical source for "rules" such as this is, of course, rather tricky; however, works such as Fowler's _Modern English Usage_ (in its original or updated versions), or the Oxford University Press's _Hart's Rules_ (now superseded by the _Oxford Style Manual_) could perhaps be regarded as reasonably authoritative.

To quote from Burchfield's _The New Fowler's Modern English Usage_ (itself borrowing the OUP house style as set out in _Hart's Rules_):

All signs of punctuation used with words in quotation marks must be placed /according to the sense/. If an extract ends with a point or exclamation or interrogation sign, let that point be included before the closing quotation mark; but not otherwise.

His examples of this include:

'The passing crowd' is a phrase coined in the spirit of indifference. Yet, to a man of what Plato calls 'universal sympathies', and even to the plain, ordinary denizens of this world, what can be more interesting than those who constitute 'the passing crowd'?

But I boldly cried out, 'Woe unto this city!'

Alas, how few of them can say, 'I have striven to the very utmost'!

He then goes on to say:

In regard to other marks, when a comma, full point, colon, or semicolon is required at the end of a quotation, there is no reason for perpetuating the bad practice of their undiscriminating inclusion within the quotation marks at the end of an extract.

and gives several example of the UK style in use, finally noting the difference between the UK and US ways of doing it.

The _Oxford Style Manual_ rather pithily observes:

In US practice, commas and full points are set inside the closing quotation mark regardless of whether they are part of the quoted material. The resulting ambiguity can cause editorial problems when using material from US sources in British works.

As with anything, though, recommended practice often differs from reality as practised by the sort of people who don't understand the difference between "your" and "you're".

I would agree with them, except that the example they have chosen is

*not* "complete quoted speech"! Hal's complete words would not have ended with a comma; PeterS was quite right. An instance of "complete quoted speech", with its quoted punctuation within the quotation marks, can be found in Burchfield's second example above.

However, you appear to have missed out the previous section of the Wikipedia page:

The American convention is for sentence punctuation to be included inside the quotation marks, even if the punctuation is not part of the quoted sentence:

'Good morning, Dave,' said HAL. "Good morning, Dave," said HAL.

The British style is to have the punctuation outside the quotation marks for small quoted phrases:

Someone shouted 'Shut up!'. Also called "plain quotes", they are teardrops.

which (a) seems to sum up the differences fairly well, and (b) supports both Tom's original usage, and Will's "UK vs. US" defence of that usage.

[Aside: observe that Wikipedia use exactly the same sentence as an example of both "even if the punctuation is not part of the quoted sentence" and "complete quoted speech". This seems rather odd.]
Reply to
Simon Turner

... but managed to spell "grammatically" correctly in the same post!

8-)
Reply to
Simon Turner

No, I didn't miss it. But my point wasn't that such didn't exist, only that there appears to be cases where there is a commonality. And the example I gave illustrates this. Or, appeared to.

Interesting, though. Thanks for your additions.

Jon

Reply to
Jonathan Kirwan

Oh, indeed; sorry I misunderstood your point. Places where the punctuation is part of the quotation, rather than merely part of the sentence in which the quotation is embedded, should (!) be written the same way by UK and US writers.

A further wrinkle is that, in typeset works at least, the UK "rules" tend to favour single quotation marks '...' by default, with doubles "..." being used for quotations within quotations; but the US rules are apparently the other way around. However, this is a less universal rule in the UK (although Fowler and Hart both agree on it): I tend to use double quotation marks first, mostly because I find the single marks ugly in many fixed-width fonts; and I know people who were taught that the kind of thing being quoted determined the type of marks to be used (complete with value judgements about whether it was a quote, or merely an indication of a slang term which wasn't necessarily meant in a strict literal sense).

What a pity they chose an "example" which didn't illustrate their point at all! Sigh.

Reply to
Simon Turner

Sorry, spelling was *never* my forte.

-- D. Jay Newman

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Reply to
D. Jay Newman

This may be due to a typing problem I have. When I get tired, my fingers don't always do what they're supposed to.

Also, my spelling is often not self-consistent, let alone consitent with other peoples' rules.

-- D. Jay Newman

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Reply to
D. Jay Newman

why I thank you for the English lesson.......many need to know that ya know .....im sure alot of ppl are going to read this......and im sure they will love your input

*smile*
Reply to
Terry Lynn Sadler

well isn't that nice alot of ppl came forth and made their pious comments.....congrats to you all. I am sure you will win the internet based on your English grammar..... oh btw thanks for the input but then im not a perfectionist......nor would I want to be......

here is the site mentioned in the above thread for those of you who don't know what it is about and apparently you all don't .....so here it is again :))

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oh yeah and it was on the news but I don't think you all watch it.....LOL to busy telling ppl how to do this or that and your own lives are a confused state of being ......

anyways thanks for your input thought I would get you all back on the right trail again since you all lost it...... < tongue in cheek >

Turner)

Reply to
Terry Lynn Sadler

On the contrary. I found the grammar discussion far more interesting than your original topic.

Reply to
Chris S.

:)

Jon

Reply to
Jonathan Kirwan

Reply to
Modat22

I would imagine that this was primarily because it was actually legible.

Reply to
Tom McEwan

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Reply to
Terry Lynn Sadler

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