action: put the cards on the table

put the cards on the table - create a conversation where we can acknowledge and learn from the past

I personally feel that it is unrealistic to assume that, given human nature, mistakes made in the past will never be made again, even if the faces change. Especially if those mistakes were concealed behind closed doors, or in the 'sanctuary' of a over-tolerant board.

If we let members know the truth about how we got to this state, a "taking stock" if you will, I think we would be in a better position to decide how to protect ourselves going forward.

Not that this is a small feat by any means, but necessary because many if not most members don't know what has been going on, (and I am not just talking about motor certification here, but also the abuse of funds, blacklisting, etc.)

This action is how to identify what happened, and how to communicate it in a way that empowers members to understand the conditions that a board or prefect faces, what pressures or temptations there are, and what standards could we aspire to.

comments?

- iz

Reply to
Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed
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A web page so you have to seek it out or be told about it to find it. No need to haunt the evildoers lives forevermore (like they did to their victims) even after the solution is implemented. But forthose with a "need to know" (new members, appointed inverstigators), the info will be on the record somewhere that cannot be hidden like an old book and "made unaccessable through excessive printing costs".

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

IZ,

OK, this whole thing is the result that you are a propaganda minister. I am tired of bad propaganda at a time of HPR resurgance. This is a time to have good tidings, not this shit.

Now that hobbyists are comming out to launch sites in droves, Vendors are selling kits in droves,

Motor manufactures seem to be selling as much as they can make, old time rocket motor manufactures seem to be selling again, even when they are not part of the machine.

Why the ba-geezza do we need a Propaganda minister telling us all kinds of stuff, stuff from a leader that does not even care about HPR as we know it.

Go away until you can interact without this sanctimonious agenda please.

Reply to
Al Max

Iz propagandized:

Good idea! What will it take for you to learn that people are sick of malcontents rehashing dead issues over and over to promote their own agenda?

Reply to
RayDunakin

When do they get declared dead? When they are resolved and non-issues, or, when they annoy TRA BOD sufficiently they can no longer successfully ignore them or hide from them?

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

replace "over-tolerant board" with "corrupt or complacent board, or a board where dissenting members are impotent to influence decisions."

- iz

Reply to
Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed
100% noise

- iz

Al Max wrote:

off topic naysaying

Reply to
Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed

Ray, please stay on topic, and stop trying to change it

this thread is about full disclosure of the past so that we can learn from the mistakes (and identify the guilty)

as Bob K. suggested, I believe a thorough audit would be in order, and I'll add a careful review of all transcripts, memorandum, etc.

to make up for the lack of oversight and disclosure and accountability in the past

- iz

RayDunak> Iz propagandized:

Reply to
Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed

So, Izzy,

Would your "new TRA" answer questions like I asked you about ARSA, or not?

I find it so very interesting that you won't answer even the most basic questions about ARSA, even though you are the "communications facilitator" (your term) for ARSA.

- George Gassaway

----------- repeat of questions that Izzy refused to answer

Izzy,

I?ve had some problems locating some things on the ARSA website.

Where can I find the ARSA by-laws?

Where can I find any information as to when/where ARSA was officially created as regards public/state (or federal?) documentation or recognition?

Where can I find info on when the last ARSA election was held, and who ran?

Where can I find info on when the next ARSA election will be held?

Where can I find a list of who is on the ARSA board, which positions are held by what people, and how does the ARSA board operate if for some reason the ARSA by-laws website link didn?t load?

As ARSA communications facilitator, I?m sure you won?t mind answering these.

- George Gassaway

Reply to
GCGassaway

an off-topic, attempt to impede a open inquiry into whats possible for rocketry and rocketers in an desperate attempt to prevent reflection on and contrasts with your ineffectiveness

I answered your transparent questions

- iz

GCGassaway wrote:

Reply to
Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed

I disagree. If I were joining ARSA, I certainly would like to see the bylaws to know what I'm getting into.

Tom

Reply to
Tom Binford

you mean there are ARSA bylaws ??!

how about a mission statement and a safety code.

it's alot less trouble (and easier to live with)

- iz

Tom B> I disagree. If I were joining ARSA, I certainly would like to see the bylaws

Reply to
Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed

Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed wrote: > you mean there are ARSA bylaws ??! >

So I looked at the ARSA website with a little more rigor. It was obviously designed by an Engineer (not an insult, I'm an Engineer so I speak Engineerish).

The safety code is pure Engineerish. Engineers use the work "should" when they really mean "will". The word "must" is a strong version of "will". People who are not Engineers read "should" as "could" and treat it as optional (usually ignored). I deal with this every day. Safety codes should be strongly worded.

I could find no reference to a forum or mailing list for me to participate in the free flow of ideas that iz has talked about in such flowery terms. I am an ARSA member but I have not received any information on how to participate.

Reply to
Alex Mericas

Since you have already seen them (none) you have full disclosure.

Act accordingly.

Do you have full disclosure of TRA bylaws? Are you sure?

Jerry

BTW you don't.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

You just did. Successfully.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Iz wrote:

Reply to
RayDunakin

Izzy wrote from the spin zone:

an off-topic, attempt to impede a open inquiry

Reply to
GCGassaway

You just don't like being dealt 5 aces. It confuses you.

Do you know of any other organizations organized as unincorporated associations?

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

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