action: motor certification

motor certification - meeting DoT requirements vs. publishing reliability and performance statistics
currently motor certification for commercial launches is a requirement
in NFPA 1127. What about states where the IBC or NFPA 1127 code is not? Is mandated motor certification something we wish to see remain in the code, or is it possible revise or dispose of it?
what is the role of AHJs, like the State Fire Marshal, in constraining the use of flammable solids, or other materials used in rocketry, and how does that bear on motor certification?
and what of the DoT? How does DoT testing required for legal motor shipment relate to motor certification as it exists today?
apart from meeting specific AHJ and DoT requirements, and if the NFPA can be revised or disposed of, is there a case for continued motor certification to provide reliability and performance statistics? Apart from consumer confidence, to what extent does these statistics bear on the cost of insurance?
what is the best way to satisfy testing requirements?
- inhouse - DoT, UN, etc. - independent testing (UL, etc)
comments?
- iz
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Third party performance review is the only valid purpose served by motor certs.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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does that satisfy DoT? Does DoT care about "performance" at all, or just about materials hazard? What about Bureau of Mines, or State Fire Marshals Office other AHJ, do they have testing requirements that relate to rocketry materials?
- iz
Jerry Irvine wrote:

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Nope.
DOT classifies the inherent properties of the material (substance or article). The material is tested to long held standards (TB 700.2) and tests to determine explosivity, corrosivity, flammability, stability, and such.
It is assigned a "recommended" hazard class based on that test.
Then the nannystate DOT administrators who have never seen or touched or tested any materials assign a yet higher arbitrary hazard class to it (because they can)

ONLY CA SFM continues to want to have jurisdiction over them as well and that should be eliminated forthwith and would have had TRA simply not consumed 100% of its resources on corruption, greed, and illegal and immoral acts. The difference between the industry as experienced from 1990-2003 and how it would have gone if TRA simply had no corruption and a 4x a year magazine published on time and a policy of fewer regs and rules instead of maxing them out, and following ATF regs instead of poking them in the eye constantly is huge.
The actual losses were about 20,000 participants. It is reasonable the potential gains were at least that many again.
So compare TRA membership 2003 under Kelly/Rogers/Embry with Proven Irvine/Fest results (and many other sites nationwide) and add to that the lost potential and we have a difference between 3000 screaming corrupt whiners and 40,000 robust consumer HPR people popping off SU H's, I's, J's like they are baby wipes in a day care center.
Jerry
You can quote me on that.

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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So, Izzy,
Would your "new TRA" answer questions like I asked you about ARSA, or not?
I find it so very interesting that you won't answer even the most basic questions about ARSA, even though you are the "communications facilitator" (your term) for ARSA.
- George Gassaway
----------- repeat of questions that Izzy refused to answer
Izzy,
I’ve had some problems locating some things on the ARSA website.
Where can I find the ARSA by-laws?
Where can I find any information as to when/where ARSA was officially created as regards public/state (or federal?) documentation or recognition?
Where can I find info on when the last ARSA election was held, and who ran?
Where can I find info on when the next ARSA election will be held?
Where can I find a list of who is on the ARSA board, which positions are held by what people, and how does the ARSA board operate if for some reason the ARSA by-laws website link didn’t load?
As ARSA communications facilitator, I’m sure you won’t mind answering these.
- George Gassaway
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an off-topic, attempt to impede a open inquiry into whats possible for rocketry and rocketers in an desperate attempt to prevent reflection on and contrasts with your ineffectiveness
I answered your transparent questions
- iz
GCGassaway wrote:

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Very well said, Iz. It is obvious to me that you are looking at possibilities and "how it should be done", and not how existing organizations currently are.
I find it a very useful conversation set that _ALL_ current and would-be rocketry organizations should participate in, and pay attention to. An open discussion with an open mindset... wow, what a concept.

not?
~ Duane Phillips.
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Duane Phillips wrote: << It is obvious to me that you are looking at possibilities and "how it should be done", and not how existing organizations currently are. >>
If so, then he should answer these simple questions: Would his hypothetical "new organization" publicly post the details of its structure, bylaws, and insurance? Would it publicly answer questions about these details?
<< An open discussion with an open mindset... wow, what a concept.>>
Apparently this is a concept that certain parties think should be applied only to those organizations with which they have an ax to grind.
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Ray, master of the Nay Say
- iz
RayDunakin wrote:

I can't see why not? but then I'm not the one inventing it. We collectively are (its a fiction, Ray). Maybe someone will know why they shouldn't be answered publically. Like a lawyer, for instance.

Nay Say, Ray! Ray, Nay Say "NaySay"! Ray, Say "Ray Say!"
the "open discussion" is in reference to the inquiry regarding what is possible, and is not being applied to any [actual] organization.
- iz
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should
hypothetical
Ray, it doesn't even exist yet. So how could he possibly answer this? He posts, "How should we do it?"... And you say, "So, how are you going to do it?"
As to ARSA, it is apparent its' structure is not set up like the other groups. It has far fewer restrictions, NO BUDGET (at least not one paid by membership), and is still in infancy. If it had a member supported budget, then members would need to have some say in the management of such. Since not, then either people can accept the volunteer effort as is, or do something else.
What is obvious, Ray, is that many people are dissatisfied... likely enough to probably either remold a current organization, or create a new one. Either way, I hope we are all able to gain from lessons of the past, and make a better future for the hobby.

only
You are grinding in the middle of a set of very open-ended questions, and IMHO, is one of the most thoughtful and constructive set of postings I have ever seen in this NG, ... (unless you stick all the glue threads together... <g>).
If you truly believe there is nothing that can be done better, then explain why, and we can all learn from each other. If you don't wish to be a constructive part of the discussion, then you are trolling... plain and simple.
I still respect and read much of what you post.
~ Duane Phillips.
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Duane Phillips wrote: << As to ARSA, it is apparent its' structure is not set up like the other groups.>>
That's fine, but why is it so difficult to get any answers about what kind of structure it does have?
<<If it had a member supported budget, then members would need to have some say in the management of such. Since not, then either people can accept the volunteer effort as is, or do something else. >>
Well, that's fine if it's what the members want. But if they want that kind of organization, with no bylaws, no member input and a self-appointed dictator for life, why then do they (at least certain members) demand something else from other organizations? How can they talk about being a "volunteer effort" while ignoring the volunteer effort that is TRA and refusing to volunteer themselves?
<< If you truly believe there is nothing that can be done better, then explain why, and we can all learn from each other. If you don't wish to be a constructive part of the discussion, then you are trolling... plain and simple.>>
I'm not saying TRA is perfect or that there aren't areas that could use some changes. I object to the misleading and hypocritical attacks on TRA, which is not the way to effect change.
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RayDunakin wrote:

Probably because it isn't big enough to have much of one. (What does the org chart of "HAKO Ballistics" look like?)
-dave w
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:

Listen carefully . . . .
Unincorporated association.
Acknowledge receipt of those two words into your brain.
Post my receipt.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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of
Wow, Ray, that has been answered over, and over, and over, and is readily apparent on the ARSA web site. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. IMO, you are defending by trying to redirect the needling Izzy is giving TRA... but ARSA and TRA are not comparable, nor does Izzy's affiliation with ARSA have anything to do with a conversation about the successes or shortcomings of TRA. Just like talking about the pros and cons of NAR have nothing to do with TRA.

some say

kind of

dictator for

from
while
themselves?
While there *are* many, many a volunteer in both NAR and TRA, and in fact, neither would exist without them, they are still *incorporated, and non-profit*, and are supported by paid memberships. So they fall under entirely different legal requirements.
So you seem to desire to stipulate the shortcomings (as you are postulating) of ARSA. ARSA cannot shortcome a structure which it does not have, nor does it have paid memberships. When the general membership puts time and/or money into a group, and then they have valid ground upon which to request change, even in ARSA.

explain
some
is
Unless the attacks are neither misleading or hypocritical.
You base hypocrisy on comparing the *structure* of ARSA and TRA via Izzy's membership in ARSA to his comments on TRA. The two don't compare on a structural level. However, comparisons are wide open on matters of rocketry regulation.
As to the misleading part, I don't know that it is misleading. Yes, I do agree some statements get overkill and stretching due to writers trying to emphasize a point, but *I* believe there are valid issues there.
I know nothing of myself, only what I have seen written and spoken by others and heard (read "hear-say"), and what the organizations themselves officially distribute. When it comes to TRA, I have an outsider's point of view, having never joined TRA. I have personally met and spoke with Bruce and several others. But the whole self over-regulation bit about motors has always stuck in my "teeth"... and I have not been able to swallow it. I was with NAR for a year, a few years back, but have not gone out of my way to rejoin. I have been active with a local group for about a year and a half... but that was about a year and a half ago. I have done a lot of flying on my own, where I am free to fly what I want, and am happy to assume the risks of such, as I do fly anything that endangers anything but a few blades of grass and weeds my rockets might land in.
ARSA was a surprise, and I immediately liked the openness and freedom represented there. While I signed up for ARSA several months ago, I have yet to receive anything saying I am a member and I have yet to go to one of their launches. But I LIKE what they stand for, and after looking long and hard at JW... I chose to follow a leader I can trust. I hope he never breaks that trust. It is not whether he succeeds or fails that concerns me, only that he is heading in what I believe is the right direction WRT rocketry in general.
Despite the vim and vigor of the loud-typing specific TRA and NAR bashers, I believe they have some valid points. For the time being, I have held off joining either until I see changes in their motor certification policies, and their advancement on defending the general freedom to fly rockets. I was especially tweaked about the handling of the situation when Aerotech burned in Las Vegas. What would have happened to Aerotech, and the hobby, if they were not successful with their lawsuit against Clark County? Additionally, by their own standards, NAR and TRA should have decertified them. The fact that they did not PROVED to me that their certification rules were and are arbitrary and capricious. The hobby should not be restricted to be that reliant upon such a small number of motor vendors... it makes it too susceptible to regulation from outside. Safety, and protecting us from wrongful legislation and legally binding rules, should be the primary concern of the group... not stipulating motor manufacture/ distribution/ shipping controls and rules. It is something they *choose* to do, when it is something they should be defending against.
Motors have 99% to do with the hobby. Without motors, we have only static displays. Period. It is major bad to restrict such an essential life line. "I'm gonna *choose* to put a tourniquet around my neck and run a mile..."
THIS is where ARSA, TRA, and NAR *can* be compared...
~ Duane "please, just let me fly" Phillips.
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IZ,
you posted in another forum that you were an IT manger. as such, you know the world is made of politics, and has nothing to do with being right.
Everyone I know who is always right, never got promoted, or got fired in the corporate world and political world. It's not fair, the world is not fair, it's reality.
Perception is reality, not real reality and the sooner all of us who know we are right understand this, the beter we will be off in this world of perception keeping our rightness to ourselfs.
All the rocket hand wringers that can dig up all the laws in the world about rocketry know that if you dig them up about anything , just about everything is illegal. You can't leave the house without breaking a law, it's all about enforcement.
SO, GET Off the anti TRA thing, yes I know you and Jerry don't like the TRA, and many others don't either, but us, even those who understand you get tired of hearing about it.
and please don't start spreading FUD, like magazines at launchs and distance and blah blah blah that get the hand wringers feeding like sharks.
do someting productive. Get a few frinds interested in the hobby. get them to launch rockets. get them to join whatever organization you like.
Just quit this agenda for awhile , while the hobby has a resurgence OK ???

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responses inline
Al Max wrote:

this is not about 'your' TRA, it is about what is possible. Think outside the box.

I'm thinking of how to prepare for a revitalization of rocketry that is at "the next level", not a resurgence of the same-ol-same-ol
if you don't want to contribute on-topic, then please reduce the S/N by observing others contributing
this is work we are doing here
what you regard as "the anti TRA thing" is some other thread, and that wasn't anti-TRA, it was anti-corruption, lies and deceit
this is a thread where pros/cons, how-tos, and other issues related to motor certification are being discussed
- iz
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Iz wrote: << motor certification - meeting DoT requirements vs. publishing reliability and performance statistics>>
Currently, motor certification is both of those, plus establishing that the manufacturer is properly licensed.
<<Is mandated motor certification something we wish to see remain in the code, or is it possible revise or dispose of it? >>
Those questions really should be reversed in order, since it may not be possible, regardless of anyone's desire to remove it from the code.
<< what is the role of AHJs, like the State Fire Marshal, in constraining the use of flammable solids, or other materials used in rocketry, and how does that bear on motor certification? >>
Shouldn't you have looked for the answers to these questions _before_ making up your mind that motor certification should be abandoned?
<< How does DoT testing required for legal motor shipment relate to motor certification as it exists today? >>
As an apostle of St. Cato the Moralizer, surely you share his belief that motor manufacturers _must_ meet all legal requirements. Further, the Gospel of Cato makes it clear that it would be unethical (at best!) for a certifying organization to accept or certify motors from manufacturers who have not met these requirements.
;)
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RayDunakin wrote:

What licensing do you consider "proper"?
-dave w
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"whatever it takes to keep Jerry Irvine out"
:-)
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) wrote:

So far that is the EXACT standard.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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