[TRA motor certs] USR

As you all know there has been an ongoing discussion of TRA motor cert policy as it relates to USR (branded motors).
On the issue of DOT paperwork several "speculations" have been offered as to what TRA actually says after rejecting the paper work. Everything from fraud papers, to OEM name not matching the USR brand, challenges of ownership despite written proof and even law cites supporting it.
To date the only efforts TRA has engaged in has been direct contacts with DOT in an active effort to get the paperwork INVALIDATED so they will be able to claim it is in some way not valid. This disregards the fact that if it is "invalidated" that would mean it was VALID prior to the invalidation.
The strategy of TRA to intentionally invalidate any government document is disturbing.
Then on the issue of ATF permits, we all now know they are NOT required by law, by NFPA since it does NOT override law, and is ONLY required by arbitrary club rule by people who cannot read and understand the law. Even when explained to them in detail by their own attorneys in writing in minute detail.
Furthermore a submission was made with a proper LEMP and even that submission was refused.
DEMAND (public notice)
TRA (and each agent, assign, member or representative) is hereby notified to cease and desist all contacts with DOT as I have no pending application for motors to be certified with TRA. Disclose all such DOT contacts to date to Jerry Irvine personally.
TRA, State when you consider the MOST RECENT application for motor certifications to have occured, whether or not successful.
TRA has gone on the record of regularly following these threads without replying to them "in public". Great reply to me in private.
Jerry

Jerry, Will not the DOT come down on your side. TRA has no pull with the DOT. If the paperwork is good, it will be good. Nothing TRA says can change that. Plus, YOU should know what your most recent application was.
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Bullpup wrote:
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You know that there's ways and then there's ways... a lot depends on how you ask the question... look at what seems to have happened to Fred W. - he apparently managed to give whoever he talked to at DOT the impression that he was under the impression that something fishy was going on... and people ended up spooking each other with nervous noises about "government investigation".
Fred may very well have been attempting a fair and honest query to the regulators: imagine if someone made a similar contact in a more biased frame of mind...
-dave w

David Weinshenker wrote:
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Nothing happened to me. As for as what impression was given to DOT, you were not involved and you are therefore ignorant of whatever impression was given, if any. In any case, Jerry provided all the documentation I presented to DOT, (at Jerry's request). So, any fallout from that information is directly attributed to Jerry. Also, if anyone was spooked, it probably saved them a shit load of trouble, in the long run...
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See above.. However, as a result of the so called query and additional information that permeates the band width, I am biased now. So much so, I require verifiable proof of his ability to legally ship his motors before I would purchase motors from Jerry. BTE, here is a little taste of what you can find on the net if you "go fetch", as Jerry is so fond of telling folks.
http://www.rocketryonline.com/how-to/jerry.html
Fred
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That was sent with the LIVE inspection of the postmaster and APPROVAL of same.
Furthermore much of what is alleged in the article is false on several other basis'.
In short it is FUD.
Where are the motors physically now? Who paid for them? Is it a non-commercial transaction?

Jerry Irvine wrote:
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In reading through all the correspondence a couple things come to mind.......
1 .......much as in this state an 18 year old can serve liquor,but cannot consume such until 21.......can a salesman be under 21 and still sell rocket motors? Seems to be much the same scenario.....dunno, just a question. If they can't, it seems it prevents gainful employment (much the reason for 18 year old servers) so it's probably history if challenged.
2 ........it seems someone in Oregon owes USRockets a few motors, or cash.......call it recieving stolen property or what ever you like, but the man and/or company should have been given the opportunity to retrieve his property......irregardless of what the concerned citizens may have decided. Of course there may be correspondence which is missing/incorrect/conveniently forgotten/yet to see the light of day.........if so let's see it.
3.........TRA *contacted* the ATF? I'll sit on the sidelines a bit longer before passing judgement, but it's not looking good for the TRA guys here. It may go down in history as a dark day, but I'll wait to see more concrete info.

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Point(s).
Jerry

Winningstad instigated the kid to burn you. Winningstad engineered my departure from the local club as prefect. Winningstad had the motors in the safe in his basement. Winningstad has a long history as a thief, including the theft of rockets and reload casings found on the range at Millican. He has been in bed with Kelly for years.
-- Jim McLaughlin
Please don't just hit the reply key. Remove the obvious from the address to reply.
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They were **pissed** when DOT told them they didn't have jurisdiction and USPS had to handle it.
As far as I am concerned this and 2 dozen other turn-ins just like it are what has brought hardship from federales. They OBSERVE a problem (even a TRA fabricated one) and move to "solve" it.
Thanks Bruce and "Winingstad".
Remember this was an "accounted" shipment to see how it would go with the mass of the units. The test was a failure not because of any shipping issues but because it instantly triggered an investigation despite the "blessed" status of it.
USPS was prepared to allow SU by mail up to 1 pound per grain. Would that have been helpful in light of NO ATF permits needed to receive those and no hazmat fees?
Just checking.
Jerry

Jim McLaughlin wrote:
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Incredibly interesting.......so if this rings true, this character Kelly knowingly accepted stolen property? Across state lines?

Chuck Rudy wrote:
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What a charming gentleman!
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Now I do believe that _wasn't_ meant literally, but it's still a strange image...
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One way or the other, who assembled the webpage? He seems to think he's trying to make Jerry look bad; what he's actually done is lovingly documented a bunch of Tripolids (and himself) making themselves look bad trying to make Jerry look bad.
So it turns out Jerry's motors aren't vaporware - and for all the whining about how he's an "unreliable supplier", when he actually provides product, people complain about that! (Good heavens! He was even providing Propellant Actuated Devices to someone who wasn't a licensed Explosives User!)
-dave w

Have a little fun. Go back and read in detail Kelly's letter to Irvine.
Where in TRA's charter, articles, by laws, rules, etc., is the power given to TRA to decline to test / cert motors unless the submitter agrees to not criticize TRA?
Duuh?
Kelley all on his own adds additional conditions for testing / certification for only one manufacturer, in that entity's capacity as a manufacturer.
Not their capacity as a member or former member, but in their capacity as a manufacturer.
Need any more evidence of a vendetta? Need any more evidence of double standards, one set for everybody other than Jerry, and one impossible to meet set of standards for Jerry only?
Vote out all TRA board incumbents!
-- Jim McLaughlin
Please don't just hit the reply key. Remove the obvious from the address to reply.
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Jim McLaughlin wrote:
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Yep - I noticed that.
-dave w

David Weinshenker wrote:
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So if we go back to the beginning, TRA was born of persons being critical of NAR, but the head of TRA was too thin skinned to take any criticism himself........or are we talking money here? Losing a cash cow? Or at least losing free money?

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Bingo. But to be fair we're NOT talking about the earlier TRA president, Ed Tindell, who was single handedly removed from office by Chuck Rogers. It would seem that all of TRAs problems started at this point in time.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html

kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) wrote:
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Correct.
And Ed "saved the hobby" with his "in-office" efforts.
ACTUAL anti-terrorism.

Bob Kaplow wrote:
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This makes all the grumbling about sending TRA the money for Save Rocketry commercial valid.......has there been an accounting of all monies? It gives me major doubts about giving up my cc numbers. It would have to be done differently for me to donate again. Much differently.

Chuck Rudy wrote:
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AFAIK the only reason that Tripoli was involved at all is because it is a 501c3 in existence long enough to legally conduct a raffle. Also to prevent any tax liabilities.
Pat G gave his word on the money being a pass-through and I trust that he would make damn sure that happened.
- iz

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But it was never post-facto verified in public.
The donating public.
Jerry

<<So if we go back to the beginning, TRA was born of persons being critical of NAR, but the head of TRA was too thin skinned to take any criticism himself........or are we talking money here? Losing a cash cow? Or at least losing free money? >>
I fail to see how TRA either gains or loses money by requiring motor manufacturers meet their standards for certification.