[TRA motor certs] USR

This should also be in the F.A.Q

Fred

OK, so now that a person who gives a first name, but has a fake email address, has told me that he "read an account" by someone (with nobody pointing to that account, or who the 'trusted individual' was), I guess I'm fully convinced.

Oh, pyramid schemes. You're right, I don't do them either.

BTW, what was the relevance of pyramid schemes to my question?!? That's right, none...

David Erbas-White

Well Iz, until you pointed it out, I didn't realize I was cynical, or for that matter had any position on this matter. Maybe I can take a pill for my rampant cynicism. As for making a difference, you don't know anything at all about me. I've helped start two NAR sections, and one TRA prefecture, helped organize and run three NARCONs and two other technical conferences. For the last eight or nine years I've been an aerospace judge at the Illinois State Junior Academy of Sciences state finals. I've done with the rest of my club, numerous build-and-flys, science nights at schools and uncounted demonstration launches for every group that asked for one including several air shows and two on live TO.V. I have helped people certify level one, including one club member this last Saturday, and given the level two test. I've run every contest my section has held, and even set a national record. At our launches, I'm always available for advice, help, igniters, motors and anything else I can possibly do. I do everything I can to promote this hobby I love so much, inviting friends and co-workers to launches, donating to the legal fund and the fund for the T.V. commercial, although my limited finances didn't allow me to give as much as I would have like. I also wrote and faxed the NFPA, my Senators and anybody else that I was asked to by the NAR or TRA. And I will keep on doing all of this even though you don't seem to think it makes a difference. However, I will admit that when it comes to making long winded vaguely accusing posts and imparting sinister motives on people who disagree on what I've said, you have me beat all to hell. This is probably the longest post I've made to this group, and I've left a lot out, but I would like to say, I'm not trying be an enemy of yours, and I'm usually a pretty laid back kind of guy. I know you said you were stationed at Chanute AFB in the '80s, if you ever find your way back to this neck of the woods, look me up, and we'll go out and fly a few rockets. Because that's what this hobby is all about.

-- Christopher Brian Deem NAR 12308 TRA 2256 Level II "Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed" wrote in message news:u3aMb.103591$ snipped-for-privacy@twister.nyc.rr.com...

Yep, and none of those letters spell "Jerry Irvine".

So he organised a corporate coup. not very nice, but not illeagal. No I'm not defending CER now, just stating that life is unfair.

what has happned to Ed ?

Sorry, no paper airplanes, you could put somebody's eye out.

Bob, You're the one who needs proof that pyramid schemes are a bad idea. I suggest you do a google search on "lying, cheatin', scumbag, con artist scammers".

Oh, okay, try "fresh propellant" with "Jerry" and "date". It's there if you want to read it too. Most of us have already.

steve

Hey, that was easy, you should try!

Sorry, I haven't learnt the tiny url thingy yet.

steve

Engage your brain, I believe you are mistaken in your perception. But hey, if that's your perception, what else can I tell you, other than what is fact as I know them. You have a nice day there Duane. Maybe we will run into each other at LDRS this year..

Fred

Duane Phillips wrote:

Hey, i think you're on to something there.

read

cut and paste works too.....

Dear Mr. Irvine,

I received the follow> Sue,

I apologize for the delay in responding to you, but I needed to discuss your request with Mr. Bruce Kelly, President of Tripoli Rocketry Association, who is my direct superior in my position as Chair of Tripoli Motor Testing. I had three questions for him:

• Did he feel that you had abided by your verbal agreement made with him at LDRS XVI, Saturday morning, 9 August 1997, at Hartsel, CO? This agreement was that Tripoli Rocketry Association would accept high power rocket motors of the brand name U.S. Rockets made by you, Jerry Irvine, for testing and certification if you ceased your attacks, in all forms including rec.models.rockets, and could provide the required documents in your own name to establish yourself and U.S. Rockets as a legitimate and legal commercial manufacturer of high power rocket motors. * May I address your request in the public forum most frequented by the membership of the Tripoli Rocketry Association(TRA)? By doing so, I would be violating both TRA policy and my own agreement with Mr. Kelly. * In addressing your request in a public forum, may I respond to your request for information about the decertification and ban of U.S. Rockets motors?

To the first question, Mr. Kelly answered that he felt that you had not abided by your agreement with him, but that I was to initiate the process by which U.S. Rockets motors would be accepted for testing and certification.

To the second and third questions, Mr. Kelly answered "Yes.", and requested that I relay my recollection of our introduction and only contact last summer at LDRS XVI.

Please forgive the narrative form of my recollection. And please remember that this is what I experienced and felt which may not be either comfortable for you or what you experienced and felt.

It was midmorning on Saturday, 9 Aug 97, and I was walking west along dealers' row chatting with friends and meeting new people. I was about 50 ft west of the HPR booth when a vaguely familiar short husky man with long dark hair and a nice smile approached me with his right arm around a man's shoulders. I had the impression that he had just said to the man that he was with, "Come on, I'll introduce you. She knows me and she's a nice lady.". I also had the impression that the second man was wary, unhappy and reluctant. This set off the "rescue the lost kitten" in me.

The second man was a few inches taller than myself, had a nice tan and white teeth, sandy-silvered medium short hair, a good build, and powder blue eyes. There were little creases at the corners of his eyes and he was clean-shaven. The second man was you.

When the short husky man (from Springfest?) introduced us, I didn't catch your last name clearly. I thought that it could have been "Irving", "Ewing" or "Irvine". There were launches going off and a lot of people milling around us talking. I took your hand and you smiled a little. But your eyes didn't smile. Their gaze felt cold and hard. I felt like I was being examined and evaluated. To cover my discomfort, I told you that it was a pleasure to meet you and started to pull away to keep moving.

You immediately stepped a little closer, retaining my hand, and told me that you had some motors that you wanted certified. I told you that I had just found out that I was accepted as the new TMT Chair by the TRA Board of Directors and that I honestly didn't have the foggiest idea about how that was accomplished, where the motors were tested, who did it, or anything about my new job.

You told me that you had the motors that you needed certified with you and that I should take them with me and do them when I got home and found out. I told you that I was not actually starting until 1 Sept 97 and that I would contact you after that as soon as I found out.

You then told me that they were hybrid motors and that they would be safe to transport back with me. Your whole stance had tightened up, you were no longer smiling and you were very insistant. I told you that I was traveling across country on vacation camping with my two children in my small pickup camper, that there was barely room enough for the three of us, and that we would not be returning home after LDRS for at least 2 weeks. And that I just didn't have room. You were angry at me at this point, but you were controlling yourself.

I flashed in that moment upon a decidedly more private but almost identical situation that I had experienced when I was much younger: a young earnest man holding tightly to my hand eagerly insisting that I do something that I was certainly not comfortable with. I had remembered then that it was okay to say "No.". And I realized that it was okay to say "No." to you.

I looked you straight in the eyes and told you, "No, I am not going to take those motors with me." You tried to pull your hand away, but I took it in both of mine and patted the back of your hand like I do Peter's when he's upset about something. I told you that because you needed your motors certified so soon, "I'd like you to please talk to Mr. Bruce Kelly, he's that man right over there, he's the President of our rocketry organization, Tripoli, and he will know where the motors have to go for testing.".

You pulled your hand away and said nothing, but your eyes were very angry. I again repeated that I honestly didn't know where motors went to be tested, and that the fastest way was to please talk to Mr. Kelly about it. About this time, we were thankfully interrupted and I excused myself from your company.

As soon as I was free from the interruption, only a few minutes, I went to Mr. Kelly and explained what had just happened and pointed you out farther west of us in the crowd. I told him that your name was "Jerry Irving" or "Jerry Irvine" or something like that and would he please take care of helping you because I didn't know what to do and you needed these motors certified right away. I told him that I was sorry that I didn't know anything about motor testing yet and he said that that was okay and that he'd talk to you.

Later that day, after lunch, I saw Mr. Kelly and asked him if he'd had a chance to talk to you yet. He said that he had, and that although you had been extremely critical of TRA and TMT in the past, that you'd agreed to not do so publicly anymore. He also told me that as soon as you had your paperwork straightened out in your own name, you would contact me and we could go from there. At the time, none of this made sense to me, and when I returned home and started getting the TMT stuff all in one place, I had a post-it note on my computer with your name on it to remind me that you were going to call me about getting your motors certified.

By the time you contacted me last Friday, everything made sense. That takes care of the first sentence of your request.

The second sentence of your request will involve establishing yourself and U.S. Rockets in your own name as a legitimate and legal manufacturer of high power rocket motors.

As of 31 Dec 97, the Tripoli Motor Testing Manual has been updated and is waiting the completion of the testing and re-certification of the In Process motors. The TMT Manual was updated to follow the egulations of the California State Attorney General's Office, the California State Fire Marshall's Office, the Explosives Enforcement Division of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (the Orange Book, ATF P 5400.7), the current Department of Transportation CFR 49, Parts 100 to 185 (1 Oct 97), and the NFPA documents 1125 (Code for the Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors) and

1127 (Code for High Power Rocketry). These regulations, with the exception of the NFPA documents, apply regardless of the publication date of the TMT Manual. NFPA 1127 applies because the membership of TRA has adopted it as their safety code.

Per the updated TMT Manual, and accordingly the documents stated in the previous paragraph, the requirements to be established as a legitimate and legal manufacturer of high power rocket motors with Tripoli Motor Testing are:

1. Applicant must submit to the TMT Chair at least three of the following in the applicant's name:

• Copy of business license * Copy of D/B/A or partnership filings * Copy of Certificate of Incorporation filing receipt * Copy of LLC filing * Copy of any permit/license granted to a company by a government agency * Copy of the company's Certificate of Authority/Sales Tax Certificate * Copy of the commercial property lease

1. Applicant must submit to the TMT Chair two signed copies of the BATF Low Explosives Manufacturer's Permit in the applicant's name. One copy will be kept on file with the TMT Chair and one will be forwarded to the designated TMT Chief of Testing by the TMT Chair.
2. Applicants who are legal residents of the State of California will submit to the TMT Chair one copy of the California Pyrotechnics Operators License, Rocket-2nd Class or Rocket-1st Class. Other states may have similar licensing requirements and one copy of that license will be submitted to the TMT Chair.
3. Applicant must submit to the TMT Chair a 0 (five hundred dollar, US funds) cashier's check or money order made out to Tripoli Motor Testing. Upon completion of testing, the TMT testing fees and the cost of repair/replacement of testing equipment damaged by the applicant's motors will be subtracted from the 0 and the balance returned to the applicant no later than 30 days from last date of testing. Any costs above and beyond the 0, due to the submission of a large number of motors for testing or due to damages to the testing equipment by the applicant's motors, will be due and payable within 30 days from the last date of testing. The motor testing data will not be available to the applicant, certification of motors will be delayed and all of the applicant's motor hardware will be retained until all fees and costs are paid in full. Motors will not be accepted for testing and certification if there is a balance due from a previous testing session.

When you have completed the above 4 requirements, we will continue with the process of submitting high power rocket motors to TMT for testing and certification. That takes care of the second sentence of your request.

Re-certification is still several years ahead of us. We will cross that bridge when we come to it. That takes care of the third sentence of your request.

The fourth and final sentence of your request says, "Please give me a clear basis for the recent decertification and ban of U.S. Rockets motors announced by TRA.". I am sorry if this will be unpleasant for you.

U.S. Rockets motors were forbidden at Tripoli Rocketry Association regular launches for two reasons.

• After several reports from consumers and RSO's that U.S. Rockets motors were appearing at TRA launches that were either backdated or relabled, I personally inspected two of them. The propellant was pungent and the date was handwritten on a very clean looking sticker. * Physical legal evidence and photographs of additional legal evidence were shown to me that indicated that U.S. Rockets motors were shipped directly from you to several consumers in non-DOT approved containers by air. In addition, not one of these consumers had a BATF Low Explosives Users Permit, and one was a minor.

The first reason I am directly responsible for. After receiving several reports, inspecting the motors, and receiving several more, I was at a loss as to how to control the problem. Under the Three Year Consumer Protection Policy adopted by TRA in 1997, motors that had expired could still be flown at regular TRA launches for three years beyond their expiration date if their date of manufacture could be verified by the RSO as having been during their certification period. Here I had motors that had expired showing up at launches and the motors appeared brand new. They had stickers that backdated them to their certification period or had obviously been relabled recently. And their failure rate was being reported at about 50%. I had unsafe untested uncertified motors that could still be flown for three more years.

After about six weeks, I finally contacted Bruce Kelly and asked him what I should do. He had also received similar reports. He said that those motors should be de-certified. While I agreed with him, I didn't feel confident enough in my new position to go solo with it. I asked him if he would back me up and he said that he would. And the U.S. Rockets motors were decertified.

What is rather sad is that I didn't realize that you were U.S. Rockets until after I saw the motors and talked to people at launches. Realizing that the manufacturer of these motors was the same unhappy angry man that I'd been unable to help at LDRS delayed my approaching Bruce Kelly. I even tried to find your phone number by calling most of the area codes in California without any luck. No one seemed to know how to get a hold of you, or maybe was willing to help me find you. It wasn't until early this year that I found you on RMR. By then, it was too late.

I have had no further involvement in the second reason that U.S. Rockets motors were de-certified. I was simply ashamed and dismayed that one of my manufacturers was being acused of being so flagrantly in violation of federal laws. I wasn't called on the carpet in your name, but I felt like I was.

Despite what we read on RMR, I am periodically very unpopular with the volunteers and the manufacturers. TMT is and will remain completely and totally within the law and within the guidelines that we have all agreed to. If this means LEUP's or LEMP's, by God, we will have they. If this means DOT EX numbers on our propellants, we will have them. If there are conflict of interests within TMT, they will be resolved. Our motor data will be complete and all of our motors will be tested with those miserable delays. If I am missing thrust curves, I will receive that motor for testing or I will expire it. If the TMT testing fees don't get paid so that we can get batteries, gasoline for the generator, the rolls and rolls of paper towels, cleaning supplies, Krytox/Dow Corning/Radio Shack greases and lubes, decent igniters and igniter dip, film/processing/video tape, decent equipment and calibrated load cells, and all the other junk that motor testing consumes, I will not make the test data available and I will not certify those motors. If I have to live with the Three Year Consumer Protection Policy, I will de-certify motors that violate that trust.

I currently have three mildly startled but compliant manufacturers. I have two more new manufacturers besides you that are struggling though the paperwork jungle, and two poor innocent souls that have just requested information on TMT testing and certification. TMT and I are honestly only the downhill home stretch. We're the easy part after everyone else gets their pint.

Please allow me to help. I am sending a BATF Orange Book and application to your post office box. If I have another copy around here somewhere of the CA State Pyro-Ops application, I will include that. When you've got the paperwork ready, email me, I'll give you my new address to mail it to, and the next list of stuff we have to complete before you submit motors for testing.

By the first of next year, I should have had time to put together a new manufacturer info/quidelines package. It will be too late to help you, but what we learn from the process with the three (or five) of you, will be utilized in that package.

Thank you again for your patience and time and forebearance. This will get smoother.

Sincerely, Sue McMurray TRA#4027 TMT Chair

P.S. Are all TMT Chairs so longwinded?

"Dog ate my homework". Fumes.

How many times and in how many ways does something have to be rebutted before it is fully rebutted for life?

Do you see dead people, too?

He resigned from about 15 committees he was on and Bruce Kelly took over some of them and later took over the rest as President and dictator for life.

Jerry

This paragraph explains some of the current, "why so strict" questions the David's and Duanes have been asking...

As of 31 Dec 97, the Tripoli Motor Testing Manual has been updated and is waiting the completion of the testing and re-certification of the In Process motors. The TMT Manual was updated to follow the regulations of the California State Attorney General's Office, the California State Fire Marshall's Office, the Explosives Enforcement Division of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (the Orange Book, ATF P 5400.7), the current Department of Transportation CFR 49, Parts 100 to 185 (1 Oct 97), and the NFPA documents 1125 (Code for the Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors) and

1127 (Code for High Power Rocketry). These regulations, with the exception of the NFPA documents, apply regardless of the publication date of the TMT Manual. NFPA 1127 applies because the membership of TRA has adopted it as their safety code.

Per the updated TMT Manual, and accordingly the documents stated in the previous paragraph, the requirements to be established as a legitimate and legal manufacturer of high power rocket motors with Tripoli Motor Testing are:

:

Then I guess you can offer your motors for sale--Send me a flyer.. (;-)

Fred

and this one is one of those anti-Jerry rules no doubt...

1. Applicant must submit to the TMT Chair a 0 (five hundred dollar, US funds) cashier's check or money order made out to Tripoli Motor Testing. Upon completion of testing, the TMT testing fees and the cost of repair/replacement of testing equipment damaged by the applicant's motors will be subtracted from the 0 and the balance returned to the applicant no later than 30 days from last date of testing. Any costs above and beyond the 0, due to the submission of a large number of motors for testing or due to damages to the testing equipment by the applicant's motors, will be due and payable within 30 days from the last date of testing. The motor testing data will not be available to the applicant, certification of motors will be delayed and all of the applicant's motor hardware will be retained until all fees and costs are paid in full. Motors will not be accepted for testing and certification if there is a balance due from a previous testing session.

I guess you could offer up some t-shirts for sale to raise the real money.......

...since checks so frequently bounce.

steve

With your track record you will have to find a dealer in a year or two.

Jerry

Shit, I thought I could weasel you out of a few H160s. (;-)

Fred