NAR Board votes to violate Safety Code!

... except when blessed by the Pope on odd Tuesdays when the moon is full. How stupid do they think we are?

Except you're ignoring one simple fact -- these "8 people" are both de facto and de jure the only ones who CAN make such a decision. They have reviewed the request, reviewed the motors, reviewed who will be using them and under what conditions, and essentially granted a 'special certification' if all of the above conditions are satisfied.

Now, if this was a unilateral decision made by Bunny, as Chief Executive, he would have been out of line. But the fact that THOSE WHO HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO MAKE THIS DECISION DID SO is NOT out of line.

You might disagree with the decision, you might want them to have done it 'your way', but they did it LEGALLY. I'll be willing to agree with you if you can EXPLICITLY point where this decision violates DOT and NFPA regs, but as much of these regs harken back to NAR certification, I don't think you'll be able to do so -- if you can, I'll apologize, and personally write a letter to the Board, myself, asking that the decision be reversed because of it's "illegality".

But you seem to be under the belief that if YOU don't agree with it, that it's wrong. The 8 members who have been elected to uphold this responsibility have reviewed and voted on it, and under our system, that's the way it works!

Again, as I read your post, I see that these motors have been granted 'special certification status', under the conditions outlined in the motion. Should DOT, NFPA, BATFE, or state fire offices wish to prosecute for this decision, then the Trustees will be individually and collectively responsible -- but that's exactly why I trust THEIR interpretation, not yours. It's THEIR butt on the line. IMHO, any member of these groups would review the information, and determine that NAR voted AS THE BYLAWS ALLOW, and that essentially 'makes' these motors certified under these conditions.

David Erbas-White

Who is Steve Weaver?

Did the motors have DOT numbers? They must have been shipped from somewhere. If they didn't have numbers, probably the Wabbit & Friends didn't even remotley consider the certifyability of the motors. Hmm I still have one Jerry motor left. If I fill in that big void with epoxy & rejoin NAR....

Phil

Bob,

Are you saying that the FAI certification process is inferior to the NAR process? Or that FAI-certified motors are inherently more dangerous than NAR-certified motors?

Also, in what way are DOT regs being violated? Are you aware of any actual infractions where FAI-certified motors were shipped illegally within the U.S.?

Rumor has it, he's Jerry in drag

The Czech Delta motors most certainly do NOT. Nor is there a business license or business insurance on file anywhere. The exact things the NAR demanded that Jerry Irvine produce to get his motors certified. Looks like Jerry was right all along, there IS a double standard, and the paperwork requirements only apply to Jerry.

Ask Mark Bundick. Preferably face to face!

malcolm:

this is what our Vice-Presidenr, one of the NARBOT members has stated in the section manual guide which is online:

MOTOR CERTIFICATION

Both NAR safety codes and both NFPA Codes require that fliers use only-certified "motors" . This certification requires passing a rigorous static testing program specified in the NFPA Codes. The NAR safety codes and insurance require that NAR members use only NAR certified motors ; and since the NAR currently has a reciprocity agreement with TRA on motor certification, this means that TRA certified motors also have NAR certification. The NFPA Codes recognize certifications granted by any -approved testing laborato y or national user organization", bu only the NAR and TRA can rovide this service in most parts of the country . The California Fire Marshal has his own testing program for motors in that state. Motors made by private individuals or by companies with out proper explosives licenses , and motors not formally classified for shipment by the U.S. Department of Transportation, are not eligible for NAR certification and may not be used."

Now either Trip doen't mean what he says above, or he has completely changed his mind.

Also on the NAr website is this Insurance question:

Will the NAR insurance cover claims related to use of non-certified motors?

No. NAR insurance is null and void if the accident involves a Safety Code violation. Use of uncertified motors is prohibited by the NAR Safety Codes.

IS this Clear enough?

Yes I will say that the FAI so called certfication process is inferior to the NAR certfication process. Let us review:

The FAI certfication process is not the same thing as the NAR S&T certfication process. The FAi certfication process is slightly different than the NAr S&T one;or the TRA one; or the CAR one, in one important respect: The NAR/TRA/CAR certfication proces bestows upon an engine a 3-5 yr cert status. The FAI certification process who certfies that the motors being tested are suitable and adhere to the FAI motor requirements for the FAI CONTEST in which they are about to be used. What this means is that the FAI certification is basically a temporary test of motors to make sure nobody is trying to cheat with over impulse motors. The motors are then IMPOUNDED for the duration the the FAI event. These same motors must undergo a FAI cert by the countries representative NAC(National Aerospace Control, ie the AMA here in the US) EVERY time prior to use in the respective FAI contest.

Yes I will say that I personally think that FAI motors in genral rather they be "FAI certfied" or not have always been more dnagerous than comparable modle rocket motors made here in the USA or Cananda, due to the fact that some or most aren't even made by manufcaturing concerns. They are hand-pressed using formulations of chemicals that over here we wouldn't dare use, for example like picric acid or nitrocellulose..... the old CZech Adast motors were called "Widow MAkers" due to their tendency to explode rather violently due to use of picric acid.... I might add that picric acid is on the BATFE's list of explosive substances, and therefore to pocess or use or sale such a motor in the USA you would required to have LEU with storage and use by minors would be prohibited.

Ok heres how Certfication goes donw in the USA, it pretty simple and strightforward:

1. motors are imported into USA under temporary import license.....they are given a temporary UN number based on what the manufacturer says their constitute ingredients are.
2. they go to 1 of the 4 DOT approved testing laboratories where they undergo basically a set series of tests. These test are used to determine if the motor will be classed a a 1.3 or 1.4 explosive OR a 4.1 flammable solid.
3. assuming that the motors in question pass the DOT testing process, the DOT then issues whats called an EX number for this specific motor formulation. and applies a UN number. It is this UN number designation that determines if it is a 1.4S motor or a 1.4C motor and this designation determines its ability to be shipped and also it detrmines the packaging requirements.
4. Once the motor has this DOT EX number/UN designation number, they are then accepted by the NAR S&T where they are then subjected to the NFPA certfication requirements for sale and use in the USA.
5. Asssuming they pass the NAR certfication process, they are now legal to be sold and used in the USA.

Now there are additional requirements from the CPSC:

A model rocket motor sold in the USA to be Exempt from the FULL marking,instruction and labeling requirements of the Federal Banned Substances Act , must also adhere to specific packaging,marking and labeling requirements. This is verfieid in the NAR Certfication step above.

Now lets take a special case: Lets assume for the sake of argument, that foreign motors do not undergo any of the above, and lets aslo assume that these foreign motors have a explosive ingredient like picric acid or nitorcellulose or other ingredient that is on the BATFE explosives List. DO you see the potential problems allowing such motors without the full DOT/NAR tetsting process as is required for all other motors. And then there is the Liability issues. Manufactureres here in the USA are required to have product liability insurance. Will the manufacturer of these foreign motors have this liability insurance if his motors hurt someone?

Ok lets get specific shall we?

Am I aware personally of any potential infractions where FAI certfied motors were shiped "illegally" into the USA?

well yes and no...I guess it all depends on your ethics and moral compass now doesn't it? One thing I have learned since I rejoined model rcoketry over 4 years ago, is that most rocketeers have very liberal definition of illegal. But let me throw out a scenario that may be real or speculation on my part, and you be the judge.

Lets say that prior to a FAI WSMC (World SPace Modeling Championships) members of the USA Team contact one Jiri Taborsky in the Czech Republic. Never heard the name Jiri Taborsky? well Mr. Taborsky is sorta like the "engine maker to the stars", the stars in this cas ebeing members of various national FAI spacemodeling teams. His business is to provide "top-of-the-line", "state of the Art model rocket motors to the FAi competitiors. He creates motors to customer specification in small batches. He is a "boutique" motor maker. Theres NO DOUBT that his Czech Delta motors are the very best in the world. Ok so now we know who Mr. Taborsky is and what service he provides.

So the USA Team tell Mr. Taborsky , Hey we need 450 motors total, 225 each of A2-0, A2-7. So Mr.taborsky takes the order, and produces these motors to order. When the USA team arrive at the FAI event, the motors are turned over to Mr. Taborsky, and the USA Team pays him for these motors. These motors are then offered up to the FAI certficiation(motor testing) people and are impounded as described above. Now lets say that only 100 of these motors are actually used in competition. That leaves 350 motors. Well the USA Team members just place the excess motors into their range boxes, and allow them to be flown back to the USA. Where they are not DECLARED to customs. And since customs wouldn't know a czech model rocket motor from a canadian model rocket, everthing is kosher.

Now its up to you whether or not bringing back into USA, czech motor in large quantities and not declaring them is a crime or not;whether it is illegal or not. An arguemnt will be made that they are just bringing back "souviners". well a souviner would be a 3-or 5 pack of motors not 350, or

I didn't bother to post the applicable NFPA 1122/1125 code snipets that verify what I have said above is correct. The decision facing NAR members is are we going to allow the really bad policy decsion stand. It obviously is in direct violation of the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code, the AMA Model Rocket Safety Code, the NFPA 1122/1125 regulations that all other model rocket motors are required to adhere to.

Let me give you my take on why this policy was brought forth.

The USA FAI Spacemodleing Team has traditionally been at a severe competitive disadvanatge to other FAI member state competitiors because of the motor situation. The Czech deltas are 10mm motors that as I said above are no doubt the best in the world. Alot of other countries use these motors on a regular basis not only in the WSMC but in the 20+ FAI World Cup event competions held every year mostly in eastern europe. The USA team has been forced to use Estes A3-4T motors which are 13mm in FAI Team Flyoffs and past FAI Practice sessions. SO the modelers make 40/13mm off optimum models and practice with them, and the they don't get to use the Czech deltas until they hit europe. These motors are used for S3A, S4A,S6A,S9A and potentially S1B(PD/BG/SD/HD/ALT) . THIS is the driving reason behind this policy : the ends justify the means. The NARBOT basically has decided that to help the USA FAI team do better than they normally would, we will "bend" the rules for them.

I have an alternate suggestion: there are 2 ways to skin cat: the right way and the wrong way. My recommendation to the NAR would be to ante up $5-10K and legally import these mototrs and allow them to go through the DOT tetsting and NAR cert tetsting reginmes. If they pass, then the NAR itself, can sell these motors to its own members ONLY for FAI competition Use only. The NAR has the funds to accomplish this. The NAR can sell "specialty" motors to its own members just like it sells other merchandise. We are not talking about large quantities here.

The only reason I can see for that the NAR will not even consider that is as follows:

1. What is we order a batch of motors that we pay up front for, and they fail the DOT testing?
2. What if we order a baych of motors and we pay up front for, and it turns out they are labeled such that because of propellant ingredients, they would require an LEUP to sale and posses? I mean you know the FAI guys aren't going to sit by and have to do the BATFE thing like HPR guys are forced to do?
3. This would set a BATFE precedent: imagine having to have a LEUP and Storage doe 2 gr proprllant A motors....

terry dean

david: I'll take a stab at proving this is a bad policy that allows illegal behavior:

from the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code:

Motors. I will use only certified, commercially-made model rocket motors...

the NARBOT doesn't have the authority to pass apolicy that allows the NAR president to have the authority to selectively waive portions of the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code.

from NFPA 1122:

The NARbot doesn't have the authority or power to pass a policy that allows the NAr Chapter 8 Testing and Certification

Kits, and Components.

notice "A prerequiste" above? These czech delats haven't undergone that required prerequiste.

the NARBOT doesn't have the poer or authority to allow the NAR presidnet the authority to override NFAP 1125 or US DOT requirements for model rocket motors.

From NFPA 1122:

Chapter 5 Prohibited Activities

(5) Sale or transfer to the general public, not otherwise exempted in 1.1.4, of any model rocket motor, motor reloading kit, or

component that has not been certified in accordance with NFPA 1125, Code for the Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors

(6) Making, operating, launching, flying, testing, activating, discharging, or other experimentation with model rocket motors, motor reloading kits, or motor components that have not been certified in accordance with NFPA 1125, Code for the Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors

David: I think I have conclusively shown that this NARBOT policy decision is in direct conflict with the existing NAR Model Rocket Code, and applicable NFPA 1122/1125 fire code regulations.

The NAR does not have the power nor the authority to waive specific sections of either the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code or the NFPA 112/1125 or to exempt specific NAR members from the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code or NFPA

terry dean

That was quite a verbose reply.

I'm glad we have people like you around to ensure that every i is dotted, and every t is crossed, properly and without exception, to the exact letter of the law.

I see your point - IF we permit a small number of international competitors the LUXURY of practicing with motors legitimately certified and tested by an authority outside our own borders, in order to give them an even chance of competing in an international venue, then chaos and disorder will surely follow. Dogs and cats living together! MASS HYSTERIA!

PUH-LEASE.

You look like a nit-picking fool.

section manual guide

only-certified "motors" . This

the NFPA Codes. The

motors ; and since

this means that TRA

certifications granted by

NAR and TRA can

has his own testing

companies with out

by the U.S.

not be used."

violation. Use of

NAR certfication

process. The FAi

one; or the CAR one, in

engine a 3-5 yr cert

tested are suitable and

about to be used. What

motors to make sure

IMPOUNDED for the duration

representative

to use in the

be "FAI certfied" or

here in the USA or

concerns. They are

use, for example like

"Widow MAkers" due to

might add that picric

or use or sale such a

minors would be

given a temporary UN

basically a set

a a 1.3 or 1.4

then issues whats

number. It is this UN

this designation

accepted by the NAR

sale and use in the

sold and used in the

marking,instruction and labeling

specific packaging,marking

foreign motors do not

a explosive

the BATFE explosives

DOT/NAR tetsting

insurance. Will the

motors hurt someone?

were shiped

doesn't it? One

most rocketeers

that may be real or

of the USA Team

Taborsky? well Mr.

ebeing members of

"top-of-the-line", "state of

customer specification

Czech Delta motors are

service he provides.

A2-0, A2-7. So

team arrive at the

him for these

testing) people and are

actually used in

excess motors into

not DECLARED to

canadian model rocket,

quantities and not

will be made that they

motors not 350, or

what I have said

really bad policy

Safety Code, the AMA

rocket motors are

disadvanatge to

deltas are 10mm

countries use these

event competions held

Estes A3-4T motors which

make 40/13mm off

deltas until they

S1B(PD/BG/SD/HD/ALT) .

The NARBOT basically

we will "bend" the

and the wrong way. My

mototrs and allow

pass, then the NAR

only. The NAR has

members just like it

the DOT testing?

out they are labeled

sale and posses? I mean

like HPR guys are

doe 2 gr proprllant

What you both seem to be oblivious to is the almost certainty that the motors were transported illegally. If they did not have DOT numbers (which are required for certification in the US) they can not be transported legally - either inter or intra nationally. If you doubt this check oout previous threads related to Jerry Irvine owing 40 GRAND TO THE MAN for exactly that.

It seems that NAR may have become a party to shipping illegal motors. With this kind of behavior, Jerry will fit right in on the BOT. Was it 3 years ago I suggested he run? I think he got 3 write in votes.

At least they publish their data on delays - aye Bob.

Phil

outside our own

MASS HYSTERIA!

section manual guide

only-certified "motors" . This

the NFPA Codes. The

certified motors ; and since

certification, this means that TRA

certifications granted by

NAR and TRA can

Marshal has his own testing

companies with out

by the U.S.

not be used."

violation. Use of

NAR certfication

certfication process. The FAi

one; or the CAR one, in

engine a 3-5 yr cert

tested are suitable and

about to be used. What

motors to make sure

IMPOUNDED for the duration

representative

to use in the

be "FAI certfied" or

here in the USA or

concerns. They are

use, for example like

"Widow MAkers" due to

might add that picric

or use or sale such a

minors would be

given a temporary UN

basically a set

classed a a 1.3 or 1.4

then issues whats

number. It is this UN

this designation

accepted by the NAR

sale and use in the

sold and used in the

marking,instruction and labeling

specific packaging,marking

foreign motors do not

a explosive

the BATFE explosives

DOT/NAR tetsting

insurance. Will the

motors hurt someone?

were shiped

doesn't it? One

that most rocketeers

that may be real or

members of the USA Team

Taborsky? well Mr.

ebeing members of

"top-of-the-line", "state of

customer specification

Czech Delta motors are

service he provides.

A2-0, A2-7. So

team arrive at the

him for these

testing) people and are

actually used in

excess motors into

not DECLARED to

canadian model rocket,

quantities and not

will be made that they

motors not 350, or

verify what I have said

the really bad policy

Safety Code, the AMA

rocket motors are

disadvanatge to

deltas are 10mm

other countries use these

event competions held

Estes A3-4T motors which

make 40/13mm off

Czech deltas until they

S1B(PD/BG/SD/HD/ALT) .

The NARBOT basically

we will "bend" the

and the wrong way. My

mototrs and allow

pass, then the NAR

only. The NAR has

members just like it

the DOT testing?

out they are labeled

sale and posses? I mean

like HPR guys are

Storage doe 2 gr proprllant

Phil,

What you are saying is true, "if" the motors were imported through a commercial business. However, if individuals brought the motors back for there own personal use, declared them through customs, and the individual motors weigh less than 62.5 grams, there is no DOT or ATFE issue. Now if they brought the motors back in there luggage, without declaring them, and receiving permission to transport on a commercial airline, that is a big time NO! NO! Also, if they declared them as "Model Airplane Parts", they are right up there with "Big Time-Big Fine"..(:-)

Fred

Phil Ste>

What I find entertaining about this whole thing is that some members of the NAR BoT just about had kittens when it was suggested that NAR members be allowed to fly at TRA Research Launches, provided that the NAR members ONLY fly certified motors.

The reason it wasn't even a discussion point? It doesn't follow NFPA 1127.

Now, NAR has decided that it's okay to toss NFPA 1127 so a few folks can fly FAI Contest motors.

So, it's important for a very limited number of members who can get their hands on FAI motors to be able to fly them at NSL, but it's not important to open more launch opportunities to NAR members to fly within existing NAR rules, or rules that are more strict?

-Kevin

outside our own

MASS HYSTERIA!

The fools are the ones who think that the board can waive portions of the safety code. The fools are the ones that think the board can waive NFPA and DOT regulations. The fools are the ones wo think they will still have NAR insurance coverage while flying these motors.

The reason our hobby has survived for almost half a century is that we DO have people who make sure every j is dotted and every f is crossed, to the exact letter of the law.

Please explain for me how allowing selected members to violate the NAR Safety Code advances our organization? Why even bother having a safety code if the board can authorize waiving it whenever it gets in the way. That's the kind of logic I used to expect from TRA, not from the NAR.

One more question for everyone: W.W.G.H.S.D?

i'LL MAKE SURE TO VOTE FOR HIM AGAIN THIS YEAR.

Not for these uncertified motors they don't!

Yup. The same minutes say NO to allowing dual NAR/TRA clubs to host EX launches, say NO to NAR members flying old motors that were NAR certified, then do an about face and say that "selected members" can violate the NAR Safety Code if the Pope gives their event a special blessing.

But they make no mention that flying uncertified motors at NAR events with the Pope's blessing still invalidates their NAR insurance.

Considering the morons at the airports, I don't think there is any chance that anyone in their right mind would declare the stuff. Also, motors you would use for rocket tricks shoould have less than 62.5g - is it ok that fly with them as carry on or checked luggage?

Phil

So.....we are to understand that those who must religiously follow the NAR code to the letter to cover their ass as far as distance and impulse and certified status in this country are not the same as those who are at a disadvantage overseas in international competition following the same rules?

The peons in this country must toe the line but when international status becomes a major concern (read that the status quo puts Americans at a huge competitive disadvantage) the rules aren't so important?

I see an amazing conundrum here.

Mr. Bundick, please explain this slight of hand.

Chuck