NAR Board votes to violate Safety Code!

You will note that I did NOT defend the BoT's decision. To be honest, I'm neutral on it. What I objected to is Bob's hyperbole of calling it illegal under State Law. It is not Illegal under Texas State Law. And if it is not illegal, it is then legal (Texas law does not require state permission to do things not specifically prohibited).

If I am following the NAR Safety Code, my insurance is in effect. I assume the FAI folks have their own insurance. And as I understand it, the motors are FAI certified.

I see nothing in the motion that even uses the word "certification". If these motors are certified through a reciprocal agreement, then they should be listed on the combined list.

The NAR board has the authority to change the safety code through the NFPA process as they recently did with the HPR code. The do *NOT* have the authority to ignore an inconvenient portion of the safety code, or allow members to violate the safety code.

I don't see that phrase anywhere in the minutes. It doesn't say that the team asked to have the motors NAR certified. They asked to be allowed to use uncertified motors. That is a direct violation of the NAR safety code, as stated in the very next item in the minutes.

Does any one know if there is actually an "official" list of what uncertified motors may be used in this manner in violation of the safety code? Or is it open season so that the team can use whatever motors they happen to show up with at these events.

I have a 'friend' in California who would like to supply a bunch of uncertified specialty motors to the team for this purpose. But for reasons of personal safety, he is unwilling to travel to Texas, and needs an address that he can ship some "model aircraft parts" to.

No, I'm not. In fact, if the team had asked the NAR to grant reciprocal certification to FAI motors, as it did with TRA and CAR, and it followed those same procedures, and put them on the combined motor certification list, I'd be 100% behind this action. But instead it voted to allow "selected members" to violate the Safety Code. That is outside the scope of the NAR. There is no "selected members" class established in the bylaws. All members must pledge to follow the NAR safety code at all times:

Section 8: A person or organization having expressed his (its) desire for membership shall become a member of the appropriate class upon satisfaction of the Membership Committee as to his (its) sincerity of purpose and good reputation, upon affixing his (its) name to a statement pledging to serve and abide by the Safety Code(s) of the Association in all non-professional rocket activities, and upon payment of dues required by these By-Laws.

Since there is no legal way to import and distribute these motors made overseas within the US without DOT paperwork, I'd have to say yes. Their very presence in this country is evidence that something is improper.

From the NAR Bylaws, Article 3 section 8: (extra caps mine)

Section 8: A person or organization having expressed his (its) desire for membership shall become a member of the appropriate class upon satisfaction of the Membership Committee as to his (its) sincerity of purpose and good reputation, upon affixing his (its) name to a statement pledging to serve and abide by the Safety Code(s) of the Association in ALL NON-PROFESSIONAL ROCKET ACTIVITIES, and upon payment of dues required by these By-Laws.

The board did NOT vote to change the NAR Safety Code. The board did NOT vote to direct NAR S&T to certify these motors, or to recognize reciprocal certification of these motors. The voted to allow "selected members" to fly uncertified motors at NAR events. This is a violation of the NAR Safety Code and NAR Bylaws.

And while they did not include it in the official minutes of the meeting, the insurance implications were discussed, and members will be left uninsured by this rule.

They have the authority to formally change the safety code through the NFPA process as they just did with the HPR Safety Code. They do not have the authority to waive the code for "selected members". I think you're confusing the way the NAR is run with the way TRA used to be run in the old days :-)

I understand that the NAR board spent about 30-40 minutes on this issue at their recent meeting. Even with that much time spent discussing this rule, there were details that either were not recognized, or were not understood by all involved. Which is why the board needs to go back, reconsider this rule, and either delete it, or revise it in a manner that is consistent with the NAR Safety Code and NAR Bylaws. They certainly should not allow selected members to fly uncertified motors until everything has been reexamined and resolved.

Or he had his fingers crossed behind his back.

I have verified something that did not show up in the board minutes as posted on the yahoo group: Even though the board has authorized selected members to violate the safety code, that violation will invalidate thier insurance coverage. Only the site owner coverage will remain.

The FAI certification process is about performance, not safety. Yes, they will reject a batch if a motor catos. But it's common practice to submit motors not as one single batch, but as several smaller batches, so that if irregularities are found there are still some motors that slip through.

These motors are also not subject to any long term testing or monitoring. They only need to function properly for a week. We don't know what their long term storage properties might be.

These imported motors have no DOT paperwork. That alone is enough to make them uncertifyable in the USA. nd there is no business license or insurance behind them. This lack of paperwork is exactly the reason that neither NAR nor TRA will certify Jerry Irvine's motors. I guess Jerry should go into business making specialty motors for selected members. He's offered to do so before.

That's not quite correct. The REAL reason that this was done was to legitimize the underground actions that the FAI team has been using for years. How's that for a double standard! Any other member gets kicked out of the NAR for violating the safety code. But the NAR board grants "selected members" the right to violate the Safety Code at NAR events.

Either these motors are NAR certified or they are not. If they are, any member can use them at any time. If they aren't then no NAR member may fly them at any time. There is no "selected" class of NAR members granted rights above other members. NAR policy has long established that no one other than NAR S&T has the right to control what motors can and can not be used at an NAR event. We went down this rathole when some contest directors wanted to limit say B SD to 18mm BP motors. The board said no.

That is EXACTLY what they have done.

There is NOTHING in the board meeting minutes on this topic that even uses the word "certified". It specifically says "Uncertified". This is in direct violation of the NAR Bylaws and the NAR Safety Code.

If these motors are in any way certified, then they should be on the certified motor list. As of now, they are not. In fact, there isn't even a complete list of what motors this applies to.

The board does have the power to change the NAR Safety Code via the NFPA process. They just did that with the HPR code. They have NOT changed the Model Rocket Safety Code in any way.

The board does NOT have the power to change the NAR Bylaws without the vote of the membership. The Bylaws require all members to follow the NAR Safety Code at all times in their non professional rocket activities.

The board does NOT have the power to create a special membership class that is exempt from portions of the NAR Safety Code and NAR Bylaws. At least not without a member vote.

Please post a document listing what what motors have been certified by the FAI. Something along the lines of the lists that NAR, TRA, and CAR publish of motors they have certified. Where is the paperwork that shows what motors have been FAI certified? When do those certifications expire? What batches of motors passed certification, and what batches failed?

Please post the SPECS that the FAI certifies motors to. NAR, TRA, and CAR all meet NFPA requirements. FAI only tests for performance within the designated range, and whether or not the motor catos. Is the performance consistent? Are the delays accurate? Are the propellant formulations legal in the USA? Are they subject to regulation by the BATFE?

NFPA 1125 requires DOT paperwork as a prerequisite. FAI motors have no such paperwork. It is this paperwork that has stood as a barrier to prevent Jerry Irvine from certifying his motors. So we now have a double standard: some uncertified motors without DOT paperwork can be flown by some members, but other uncertified motors that lack DOT paperwork can not. This is not right.

The board does not have the authority to waive the NAR Safety Code for selected members. In fact, it is the boards job to ENFORCE the NAR Safety Code at all times for all members. They have failed in that job.

The board has ALWAYS defered motor certification issues to NAR Standards and Testing. I have yet to see any statement from S&T regarding the certification of these motors.

You have not. It is in conflict with the NAR Safety Code, with the NAR Bylaws, and with the paragraph that follows it in the board meeting minutes.

There MAY be a way to reach the goal of this motion. But it needs to be done in a different manner. One consistent with the NAR Safety Code and the NAR Bylaws. What we have now violates both. Until it is fixed, it needs to be revoked IMMEDIATELY. Or at least the NAR president should not grant any approval to violate the NAR Safety Code until these issues are resolved.

W.W.G.H.S.D?

Frankly, I think this problem started with the WAY John worded his request. What I don't understand is why the board didn't see the problem and fix it.

John shouldn't have asked the board to allow the Prez to waive the NAR Safety Code. That request violates the NAR Bylaws.

He should have asked NAR S&T to grant reciprocal certification to FAI motors. That makes it a technical discussion like the recent one with reciprocal certification with CAR, and is fully compliant with the NAR Bylaws and Safety Code.

Just like in so many other situations, if you ask the wrong question, to get the wrong answer.

I did last time we were there. VERY good BBQ.

I thought that the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia was the only non-NFPA state, at least as far as rockets goes. Is there a list somewhere of what states are and are not NFPA 1122?

alex:

So now we are in the business of "asuuming" ? The fact the motros are FAI is irrelevent. AS I and Bob has tried to point out in our responses here, is that NAR/TRA/CAR certfication and FAI certfication are two completely different things. Please read some of the other posts: FAI certfication is just prior to FAI event use: its based on performance not so much as long term safety. If Czech motors batch B are FAI ceretfied at the WSMC this fall in Bakinour, they are certfied for that FAI contest only. When the next FAI world Cup is flown, these same motors have to be re-tsted and recertified agan. AT the next FAI world cup event, they have to be recerted again....AS far as insurnace is concerned, thes fai spacemodleing people are supposed to be flying under the AMA Model Rocket Safety code, which I might add is also being violated by this decison :

All AMA members who operate model rockets must comply with the AMA Official National Model Rocketry Safety Code for liability coverage to be applied.

1. ENGINES - I will use only pre-loaded factory made model rocket engines that comply with the

NFPA codes governing model rocket engines that contain no more than 62.5 grams (2.2 oz.) of

propellant.

SInce these czech delta motors do not "comply with the NFPA codes governing model rocket engines" they cannot be used by AMA members and if they do, they are in violation of the AMA Model Rocket Safety Code, and their AMA insurnace is null and void.

terry dean

Does NAR insurance cover anything?

Have him send them C/O Ken Allen 8-)

I was referring to notification of the landowner.

ALL states except TX and CA evidently....

terry dean

I'm going to make a radical proposal here folks.

As some of you may be aware, John Langford is the founder and current president of Aurora Flight Sciences, and I assume a majority stockholder in his company.

As such Mr. Langford has what amounts to a pretty good income. My recommendation to Mr. Langford, is to take a small percenatge of that income, or even perhaps get his company to legally import these czech delta motors into the USA and pay for their US DOT explosives testing and NAR certfication. See, I beleive that John is really sincere when he says he is concerned about the competitive disadvantge the USA team has been at for more than 30 years now. He could even set it up as a wholly owned subsidairy of AFS.

terry dean

I love how this bashing of CA continues.

Anybody do a web search?

Or even reference the documents that I reference dozens of times in the past whenever anyone asks about CA Model Rocket regs?

Use the binoculars in the Adobe reader to search for "1122".

Yes, the year is old, but the CSFM has explained that before and is allegedly working to correct that.

Nothing about 1127 because it pre-dates 1127.

I think 1125 is also somewhat new and was spun off of 1122 (1988), but LO and Behold, they reference 1125 as well.

-Fred Shecter NAR 20117

fred:

I wasn't bashing CA. I was just pointing out that CA is a known state in which only parts of nfpa1122 have been adopted as part of their overall model rocket code.

alex:

this url and listing you provide is 2 years old go here:

Also as I have explained in the past in several different forums, A state that has adopted NFPA 1 is highly likely to have adopted NFPA 1122/1125/1127 due to NFPA 1's chapter 65 which references such nfpa codes. A state that has adopted the IFC also contain a code reference these same 3 NFPA codes, its either chapte 33 or 34 depending on year of the code.

Statewide Adoption of Model Fire and Life Safety Codes

Alabama NFPA 101 Life Safety Code NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE Alaska INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE Arizona NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE Arkansas NFPA 101 Life Safety Code INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE California NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE Colorado NFPA 101 Life Safety Code NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE Connecticut NFPA 101 Life Safety Code Delaware NFPA 101 Life Safety Code Florida NFPA 101 Life Safety Code NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE Georgia NFPA 101 Life Safety Code INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE Hawaii NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE Idaho INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE Illinois NFPA 101 Life Safety Code Indiana NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE Iowa NFPA 101 Life Safety Code Kansas NFPA 101 Life Safety Code Kentucky NFPA 101 Life Safety Code NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE Louisiana NFPA 101 Life Safety Code NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE Maine NFPA 101 Life Safety Code NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE Maryland NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE Massachusetts NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE Michigan NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE Minnesota NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE Mississippi NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE Missouri NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE Montana NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE Nebraska NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE Nevada NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE New Hampshire NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE New Jersey New Mexico NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE New York NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE North Carolina INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE North Dakota NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE Ohio INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE Oklahoma NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE Oregon NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE Pennsylvania INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE Rhode Island NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE South Carolina NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE South Dakota NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE Tennessee NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE Texas NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE Utah NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE Vermont NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE Virginia NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE Washington NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE West Virginia NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE Wisconsin NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE Wyoming NFPA 101 LIFE SAFETY CODE NFPA 1 UNIFORM FIRE CODE INTERNATIONAL FIRE CODE

terry dean

"Fred Shecter" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@news.boeing.com...