APCP into the fire

Kurt wrote:


The ATF never negotiates.
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How do you know? Did you try?
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Phil Stein wrote:

Nope,
But I was told that has been attempted in the past and they refused. For cripe's sakes, if they came up with a 25 or 50lbs. possession limit of HPR grains, don't you think the officers of the NAR and TRA would have brought that to the membership? When I've mentioned this issue of negotiation in other venues I'm gently reminded that was tried and not accepted by them.
Kurt
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Back then - I doubt it.
Phil
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Kurt wrote:

Did you consider that the ATF offer to negotiate might had occurred pre-lawsuit?
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In other words, 10 years back......
Darrell D. Mobley wrote:

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Kurt wrote:

But who defines what a modeler is? NAR/TRA membership? Remember, the law suit started long before 9/11.
If Abdul Von Izinski Smith, your neighbor down the street, starts building a bird, that's cool, but say his first bird has a 98mm MM, and alt bay, and a big payload section. Is he a modeler? Maybe yes, maybe no. He can by a motor casing with no problem, and without too much trouble and get the stuff to homebrew a motor (maybe take classes, like the 9/11 guys did to learn how to fly). Is is a modeler? Maybe yes, maybe no.. He shows no interest in joining TRA or NAR. In passing, he mentions that he plans to launch in the parking lot of a local college stadium "one of these weekends". You mention the FAA and wavers, and he says "not my problem..". Wouldn't you be on the horn to the TSA/HS in minutes? Is he a modeler? Maybe yes, maybe no. Homeland security pays him a visit. Turns out his "day job" involves designing military stuff for the government, and the bird will be used to launch canstat devices for his kid's college class, with full approval of the college, the FAA, and is infact being covered by CNN. The moral of the story - can YOU define what a modeler is?
That's why some regulation makes sense.
The point that many fail to miss in this whole regulation debate is they have blinders on as to what non-modelers might do with the exact same stuff! Why do I need a drivers license and pay fees to get it renewed? I'm a safe driver with 32 years and no accidents? Am I being "over regulated", as a "safe driver" isn't a problem?
Hey, we now live in a world where I can't take finger nail clippers on an airplane, and the most dangerous thing I've done with one of those is to knock it into the sink when the garbage disposal was running! It's "intended use" does not warrant government regulation, but it is infact regulated!
The lawsuit is a joke. APCP will be regulated, I have no doubt. Some of the funds that TRA/NAR have should be used to help local clubs/prefectures "get legal". What ever's left should be used to find a way where I can take nail clippers of a real tube of toothpaste on to an airplane....
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AZ Woody wrote:

You can bring finger nail clippers on an airplane in your carry on luggage. Check the TSA website.
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Just an example.. How about 3.1 oz of toothpaste! You need to be a bit less literal!
Alex Mericas wrote:

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Sorry, didn't notice the <hyperbole:ON> tag.
AZ Woody wrote:

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If APCP wasn't on the BATFE explosives list, there wouldn't be any regulation of it by the BATFE period.
Everyone except the BATFE agrees that APCP does not meet the legal defintion of an explosive. People here are merely reinforcing that idea that APCP is quite safe and doesn't explode.
Brian Elfert
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Oh contrare my friend: APCP, as it is legally defined does meet the legal definition of an explosive, based on its UN classification. What our HPR APCP does not meet, is the practical definition of an explosive, based on burn rate and detonable characteristics.
Fred
Brian Elfert wrote:

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W. E. Fred Wallace wrote:

The definition of explosive that the DOT/UN uses is much broader than the "primary and common purpose to function by explosion" standard that the ATF is supposed to be using in this case.
49 CFR 173.50 a) Explosive. For the purposes of this subchapter, an explosive means any substance or article, including a device, which is designed to function by explosion (i.e., an extremely rapid release of gas and heat) or which, by chemical reaction within itself, is able to function in a similar manner even if not designed to function by explosion, unless the substance or article is otherwise classed under the provisions of this subchapter. The term includes a pyrotechnic substance or article, unless the substance or article is otherwise classed under the provisions of this subchapter.
The ATF even includes this as attachment 23 of their recent attempt to hand wave APCP into the realm of explosives. But they fail to mention that the definition of explosive is different from the one the ATF has to use.

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None of your reference change the legal position ATF has taken, unless the courts determine otherwise. While I agree that ATF's interpretation is flawed at best, it is still legal in the eyes of the law, until "successfully" challenged in court. The last time I checked, there is no temporary injunction from the court reversing ATF's interpretation.
Fred
David Schultz wrote:

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Brian Elfert wrote:

I don't believe that.
The ATF is regulating potassium nitrate composite propellant because potassium nitrate explosive mixtures is on the list of explosive materials.
Both ammonium perchlorate composite propellant and ammonium perchlorate explosive mixtures are on that list. You could take APCP off the list and ATF will still say it is an ammonium perchlorate explosive mixture, therefore within their purview.
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No point, other than never having seen the stuff burn outside a casing. It's not often we have chunks like that, and an opportunity to see how slowly it burns. A new experience for me, if you will...
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Hey Pete,
Freaked me out too when I saw how benign burning grains were outside of a casing. Made me donate to the legal fund.
Kurt
Pete Pemberton wrote:

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I test burned a small silver of white lightning before... it just fizzles like sparklers. Plus its tough as hell to light, you have take a bic lighter to it for several seconds before it will light. It's like lighting sparklers with a BIC lighter.
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"Pete Pemberton" < snipped-for-privacy@DYNOMITEfuse.net> wrote in message
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Pete Pemberton wrote:

This turned into an interesting thread worth the reading. Enjoyed all sides of it. :-)
Kurt
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