Re: July 5th @ Metra

Since you guys asked. The Grandfather Clock has been postponed because I've been helping my son with his Z28. We rebuilt the engine in the garage over the winter and I lost my workshop as a result. I still plan on doing it AND the full-sized port-a-john in the not-too-distant future. As for "my ship coming in", I'm still in the process of writing my patents (4 in all). Once that's completed, I'll form a corporation and shop for a company to sell licenses to. I'm hoping that by this time next year or the year after, I'll be a man of leisure and able to spend as much time and money on rocketry and other hobbies as I'd like. If it doesn't work out, I'll still fly either the Grandfather Clock or the repaired FTBOD sometime next year.

Mark Simpson NAR 71503 Level II God Bless our peacekeepers

good idea but highly impractical from an operational standpoint. Lew Lew Garrow TRA 7181 L3 NAR 77928 L3 METRA VP NAR L3CC

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good idea! I will definitely bring this up at the meeting. The only problem is everyone seems to think we are rules hounds - this is just more rules for them! Lew

Lew Garrow TRA 7181 L3 NAR 77928 L3 METRA VP NAR L3CC

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"Andy Schecter" wrote in message news:...

Your account is essentially the same as mine. While we didn't agree on all aspects of the changes, I respected your opinion and appreciated the assistance that you gave me. If it wasn't for one of those suggestions (use of balsa to reinforce the ringfin), the FTBOD wouldn't have had a chance. I needed a lightweight 3' diameter ringfin for my design to work and found that my original plan to use non-woven fiberglass sheeting would have made the ring too flimsy. Andy suggested that I laminate 3/16" balsa strips cut to short lengths and sandwiched between the non-woven fiberglass. It was a bear to make, but the ring was light and very strong. In fact, the ring survived without a scratch while 4 3/8" plywood supports snapped on landing. Andy also sent me his brand new G-Wiz 800LC accelerometer to use instead of my planned MAD for primary deployment. An altimeter was out of the question because we knew that there wouldn't be enough "good air" around the irregular airframe for it to function reliably. When I arrived at Geneseo, Andy checked out the FTBOD and had no problem with the construction. The BFR didn't like the 17' military flare chute that I planned on using, fearing that it would shread if I had to abort the flight (I was using a MW WRC2 unit as a back up and for potential abort). When you fly around a lot of historic aircraft, you need to be extra cautious about flights involving large, unusual rockets and the BFR was acting in the best interests of HAG and the launch. While I thought at the time that they may have been overly cautious, they didn't know how sure that I was of the rocket's stability, so they acted conservatively. No problem here. Unfortunately, since I had made the parachute bay only big enough for the original chute, there wasn't a lot of extra room for a big heavy-duty chute. The best that we could do was find two R14's and a deployment bag. Both Andy and Ray spent a lot of time folding and refolding the chutes so that we could get them in the compartment, but we knew that the descent rate was going to be on the high end. We were all fairly certain that unless the barrel came down perfectly flat, the ring wouldn't stay on at that descent rate. Since getting my L3 was only a minor goal (as Andy rightfully stated), as long as we were confident that it would fly safely and not be a hazard, breaking off the ring on landing wasn't a concern. I came to fly a traffic barrel and that was what I intended to do from the start. The L3 would have just been gravy at that point. Looking back, are there things that I would have done differently, yes. Given the same set of circumstances, would I have made the same decision to fly, certainly. Would I fly an unusual 75 pound L3 rocket at Geneseo again, ????? We'll just have to wait and see. I do know that my next L3 attempt won't be 3FNC. ;-)

Mark Simpson NAR 71503 Level II God Bless our peacekeepers

silly twit Lew Garrow TRA 7181 L3 NAR 77928 L3 METRA VP NAR L3CC

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Bob and others who responded,

Thanks for your input. Having never seen this before I have a few questions/comments. The number one question is it looks like the safety distance from the pad to people (any people) is greatly reduced compared to a "regular" TRA/NRA club launch. Each pad is allowed to fire in order even when the next person is that close? Are there any required distances based on engine size? I use the AT Mantis pad which came with 30' launch cable. What if some else comes with a pad with only 10' for example. What is the safety guideline?

It seems this approach could be more of a pain than what it is worth. Now you have to bring your own car battery and launcher. That takes up more space in the car, less space for rockets. And for people like me who don't have a 1/2" rod, we would have to borrow someone else's setup. I hate borrowing things and that also means I have to wait for someone else again. And what happens to my pad while I am away retrieving my rocket? Does it just sit there idle? Or is it moved out of the way to make room for the next person?

And what about pad safety? At a club launch with club equipment, we know the firing circuits, rods and base are working, secure and adequate. With misfire alley what is to stop some less than smart person bringing a pad which isn't safe or doesn't have the required sow protected (for example)?

And lastly, if one of the key components of missfire alley is reduced distances between people and the pads, why can't the clubs do the same thing with the exisiting setup? For example, while rack A is being loaded, fire off of rack C.

joe C.

I've been thinking about this. I often pay the HPR rate ($15) to fly one HP rocket. All my other flights would be covered under our (DARS) $5 MR rate.

My idea was a card with tear away tabs. When you check in, you pay for only what you intend to fly. Example: $5 MR fee $2 1 HPR flight $4 2 HPR flights $6 3 HPR flights $8 4 HPR flights $10 5 or more HPR flights

The person checking you in either stamps the full-fare box on the card (for 5 or more HPR flights) or stamps from one to four of the tear away tabs.

When applicable, the SCO will take your tab when he signs your flight card.

I don't know the logistics impact of this scheme, but it's the simplest I could come up with.

Doug

When you go to a rack launch where you are compelled to use their pads you are borrowing something.

At misfire alley the pads sit there all day and you can include/exclude others from using your pad. It is your pad.

Jerry

No mandatory anything. Switch to misfire alley and suddenly you have a labor surplus.

Jerry

Any idea that increases complexity to save a buck is bad. Hard to manage onsite.

The better solution would be to find alternate revenue sources that are skewed toward the wealthier among the attendees. Like charge a $5 range fee for all weekend for all flyers and have raffles to raise funds for the remainder of costs. or voluntary contributions. You would be shocked how effective that is.

Jerry

Joe Cacciatore wrote:

There is essentially the "best of both worlds" if a club system is set up with some characteristics of the misfire alley arrangement. Out in the wide-open West, high-power pads can be spaced at 100 or 200 feet and still have room for 10 or 20 pads laterally. This isn't possible in the east and still keep 1500 feet from the boundary of the field and have a reasonable downwind recovery before you hit trees/crops. Also, the spacing of the big pads like this makes communications between independent launch cells very difficult (lots of radio traffic to coordinate). For low-power (up to E) a ring of pads with independent spacing is fairly compact and allows firing and loading in any order. This has worked out well for the NAR at national launches for many years. For mid-power (F/G) they can be spaced apart for independent launching at another 'tier' that is a safe distance from the low-power ring. A "heads up" to the adjacent pads is all that's needed to launch when ready. For H-J, a good compromise is to have small clusters of pads with independent loading/firing for each cluster. Depending on the size of the launch, these could be a single pad (if space allows) or as few as possible (4 or 5). The cells are spaced to launch independently, but still from a central launch controller. The spacing between clusters could allow a K or complex H/I/J at the outside most pads if space is tight on the field. Sometimes laying out these cells in an arch helps with spacing. At yet another tier, this same cell configuration could be repeated as needed for the amount of L->O flights expected. The above is essentially what was set up at NYPOWER this year and there was very little waiting at the high-power pads and no waiting at the modroc pads. Always somebody loading and launching.

I think it's very important to have a central control point for the sake of safety, especially in the relatively small fields in the East and with the added air traffic around these fields. Geneseo, for instance, is an active air field. The classic misfire alley might work but it leaves the discretion up to each finger on each button.

Also it's important to have distinct unique numbers for each pad, even if they are part of a cluster. No "1A", "1B", etc. This gets confusing and could cause pad 1 of the wrong bank to be launched (which I've seen happen!).

There's no "one size fits all" configuration, but the worst thing to do is to force a large number of pads to get loaded before launching anything. And no matter how it's set up, the Announcer/LCO (or classic RSO person) has to keep things moving. If it's in the air and it's safe, go to the next pad that's ready!

-John DeMar NAR #52094

That is not how it is done in practice. Humans like to walk less. The pads are spaced at 1/2 the offset distance so the ajacent pads have to be safe when a rocket is fired. But only the ajascent pads.

Also we do not use the Tripoli offset distances. We use the ones in effect for 30 years.

40/100/300 feeet G/J-K/+

Verbal (short offset distances, nested offset distances).

For me site density is critical (within safety) and bandwidth is hypercritical as the weather gets optimal there is a rush for the pads. You want to be able to handle every flyer flying nearly at once 3 times in a row.

I also find it helpful to have on the pad number sign the pad rod or rail size as well.

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:23:42 +0000 (UTC), "Doug Sams" is alleged to have written:

What you can do, instead, is what ROC does: tell people that they can pay by the launch event ($10) or by the calendar year ($60). People who pay by the year get spiffy membership cards, as well.

- Rick "No discrimination -- just choice of payment plans" Dickinson

Ok, I'll quote my response one more time (see NOTE), then answer your questions in-text.

Since google searches are too much effort, here's what we do.

1) Arrive launch site. Setup pads and prep area. 2) Register, pay for day launching and pickup flightcards. Flyers meeting to discuss safety on range (fire dangers, trash pickup....) 3) Prep your rocket. 4) Take your rocket and completed flight card to RSO to inspect and sign off card (else goto 3) (we any different at this point?) 5) Walk your rocket out to the flight line. If noone is standing near your controller, chances are they aren't launching on the close pads. 6) Walk out to your pad and load up. ********************** NOTE******************* 7) (in the event a close launch is occurring, back away, wait for it to lift off and observe deployment) ************************************************* 8) Walk to the LCO and place your card in the flight box (here's the queue). 9) Walk back to your controller and wait for the cards ahead of you to be called. 10) When your pad is called, launch your own rocket (aka Flying) following the countdown. 11) Recover your rocket, else recover flight card and wait 60 seconds to determine why the igniter failed. Install new igniter goto 8

I'm not waiting for a rack to clear. I'm not waiting on a whole rack, to load one next to it (now 2 racks waiting). If while loading my rocket, I'm within the safety zone of another rocket, I back up and watch it launch. 1 minute? If any thing is happening on the Estes row while I'm at the 100 or

200', I only have to look up.

Our club is a NAR/TRA club, so this is a 'regular' launch. Other clubs spend money on the equipment, and make use of them best as they can.

NO! Safe distances are maintained. The next PAD is that close, but the person has to move. Should I have to wait to launch because the guy next to me is still loading his rocket (such as on a rack)? No, he backs up to safe distance and I get to launch. Then he gets to go back to work. We often set pads next to each other. Guess what, I've rarely found that I have to back off because we're never at the pad at the same time. If I was restricted to 5 or 25 fliers in the same area, I'd do more waiting. What's worse, I would think that I would feel rushed to get my rocket out because the rack is loading.

All NAR/TRA launches must comply to the safety code. All safety distances are maintained. Here's the beauty. If you're flying a Estes and 20' over someone is loading, they only have to look up. Safe deploy, back to connecting the igiters. If you have 2 Estes at the same spot (much like a rack), the one still loading returns to the firing line until that safe deployment (or first says 'just a sec' and clips that last igniter). But, he only had to wait on that one launch, and he'll be the next in line when he turns his card in.

Absolutely true. In having towed the club equipment (pa, flags, pad markers) I know that the trailer can break down due to 2 flats(!!) on the way to the launch. They were still able to have a launch that Saturday, could you?

Who maintains the club equipment? Heck, who has to charge the battery? Cleans the dirty rods after the launch? We have plenty of reluctance in signing up for range duty, and the last year of launches, the trailer has been brought by 2 guys. One of which is still debating an hour drive this Saturday, to sit in the 115 degree (in the shade) sunshine. I can imagine the arm twisting that would be necessary to have someone take the launch equipment and clean it for the next month.

Does everyone stay till the very last club piece is picked up and ready for transport? How do you insure that a few people aren't stuck with the same job every month?

You hate borrowing things, but you borrow the club's equipment. We're more than happy to share, and of course it MIGHT mean you have to wait, but if I'm still prepping a dual deploy when you're ready to launch we wouldn't be waiting on each other, right? I bring a 1/2 rod (3/8, 1/4, 1/8) even though I don't have a 1/2 rocket. Bought that before I found buttons. I also have a Estes pad that I never use but 'just in case' someone might. I've even loaned out parts from that pad, come to think of it.

Sits there idle. The next person is either down the way, or has their pad fairly close.

Yeah, what about pad safety. Who has to set up and verify that the club equipment is ready to go. Do they make sure each rod is firmly affixed and not gonna tip? What about the controller, do they test each circuit to make sure it's gonna fire and there's no shorts?

It's funny, a lot of new people ask for help, or about club procedure before setting up. I'm not sure if the club has a 'formal' inspection of newbie's equipment (I'll have to ask), but the more daft are probably buying the launch equipment instead of assembling something out of spare parts. In all the launches I've been at, I've only seen 2 from Estes pads go up without announcement (operator error) and one HPR that launched because pad activities kicked the airstart (possible RSO missed impact).

Already touched on the distance. Do you mean to say they don't space the racks such that one can launch while another is loading? To me that sounds like the entire launch is stopped for 1/2 hour while loading rockets.

Joel. phx

Sell flight cards? Color coded.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

"Who's the best" engineer "you ever saw?"

...

When we first moved to Dallas in 1998, we shared Easter dinner with two families up the street. Dave was retired from the Navy and had flown choppers in the Gulf War. The conversation turned to _The Right Stuff_, and we all got a kick out of that line. Dave had tried to condition his wife to ask it on cue.

Since then, I've learned there's hardly a pilot in the free world who's not aware of Dennis Quaid's Gordon Cooper.

Doug

We don't allow folks ot set up "anywhere". We pre-mark spots just over 15' apart in the two parallel rows, which are also just over 15' apart. Those flying questes stuff can use the first row. Folks with rockets over 30 NS must be in the back row. OK, I mis-spoke slightly: we do need to clear a few pads when firing larger motors (or increase the distance and half-fill the back row). But it is at least minimized and only for a few moments then the person can return to their pad.

All commercial pads have at least a 15' cable to meet the safety code. If someone shows up with a 10' cable, they can't use it.

To extend this to an HPR event, rather than 2 lines, I'd set up in concentric semi-circles. A-D, F-G, H-J, K-L and a far pad(s) for M-N. This has been done at several big launches like the NSL in Muncie. While the layout is still misfire-alley like, we use a centrally controlled launch system. But still have the flexibility to fire any pad while other pads are loading.

It's no different than what you'd have to do if flying on your own. And as I said, you can always borrow someone elses launch pad, or share with a friend.

Yup. We have enough space for plenty of pads. Having a bunch of idle pads sitting there isn't a problem at all.

sow??? When new folks show up with new equipment, we give things a once-over.

The distances aren't reduced at all. They all meet the safety code requirements. In fact, the distance between pad 1 and pad 2 of a misfire alley system is FAR greater than the same distance of a rach arrangement!

They could. And I've seen ranges laid out this way with multiple cells for each rocket size. But you still have the case that if 2 people load rockets on rack A, and person 2 takes 10 minutes to do all their setup, person 1 is waiting all that time before he can fly. The finer you break things up, the less people that can block you from flying. Splitting into a left and right set of pads does very little. One person at the left hand HPR pad can block all the left pads, including the 1/8" questes pads for half an hour or more.

There's actually a system I considered, and even suggested we use when NIRA ran NARAM-33. If you've ever been to an AMA Free Flight contest, you don't see an organized range head like you do at a rocket launch. Folks just pick a place on the field, set up, and fly from there. When you're ready to fly, you go find someone else to time your flight. Since they only require one timer, compared to our 2 timers, the rule is usually "fly one, time one". You team up with a buddy (or two or 5) and time each others flights. Some changes (check-in, etc) would be needed for an NAR competition, but I don't see why this wouldn't work.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

That's what LUNAR does. 25 cents for "low power", $1 for "high power". (At LUNAR, that's F/G/H: we have an H limit on our fire marshal permit; anything bigger than E flies off the back pads and checks in at the "high power" line.)

-dave w

That is decidedly practical.