APCP into the fire

At our club launch this Sunday past, we had some chunks left over form a CATO Saturday. It was cold, so I brought my patio fire containment
device and had a fire. We threw in a chunk, not into direct flame or coals, but near enough. Took the thing almost 5 minutes to catch and then just fizzled like a sparkler. A sheet of paper would have caught and burned much faster.
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Pete Pemberton wrote:

Expect a visit from Homeland Security for blatant deflagration without a permit.
Bill Sullivan
"The Bermuda Triangle got tired of warm weather. It moved to Alaska. Now Santa Claus is missing." - Steven Wright
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The Rocket Scientist wrote:

A permit is needed when when someone pulls my finger? Oh the horror...
Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75
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Pete Pemberton wrote:

Guys,
Take a stick of Ex propellant that is uncored and burn it. It burns no more rigorously than a road flare. If it has a Bates core, it burns a little faster out both ends. It is a flammable solid not an explosive. We modelers shouldn't have the onerous restrictions place upon ourselves concerning propellant as it is not explosive.
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Kurt wrote:

But keep in the back of your mind that this really isn't about regulating _explosives_. It's about regulating _rockets_ and their use. There isn't any legislation on the books that permits regulating rockets, so the approach was taken to regulate motors which effectively regulates the rockets.
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Glen Overby wrote:

O.K.
Then if our rockets are such terrorist weapons how come the other "alternative" propellants (hybrids) aren't harassed?
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Kurt wrote:

All in due time :(
Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75
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tdstr wrote:

I've heard that for at least 10 years.
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Alex Mericas wrote:

Me too. And then today via AR I found out they the BATFE is now going after KNO3/sugar propellant.
Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75
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Kurt wrote:

Because there isn't a regulatory framework for doing so, just as there isn't one for regulating the rockets themselves. There needs to be a few more arbitrary rule changes to make that happen.
Have patience. In time, not only hybrids will be regulated, but so will the 1/2A.
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Actually, even today there could be issues with Hybrids. Some use AP as a "pre heater".
Also, what do you plan to do for ejection? Some type of electronics is my guess. And often that means (regulated) ematches and (regulated) BP.
Glen Overby wrote:

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There are ways around all these issues. O2 isn't (yet) regulated. Christmas lights aren't (yet) regulated. Pyrodex isn't (yet) regulated.
N2O is freely available at speed shops and industrial gas supplies. Yes, it can act as a monopropellant but not under normal handling conditions. It does not decompose spontaneously like hydrogen peroxide. When the ATF starts closing down Joe's Speed Shop, then I'll worry. I'll bet their legal fund is much bigger than ours!
AZ Woody wrote:

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Alex Mericas wrote:

Oh? Smokeless powder is on the list. If you use it for its intended purpose, in small arms ammunition, it is exempt. Otherwise...

Available? Yes. Freely? We wish.
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Darrell D. Mobley wrote:

Pyrodex is not smokeless powder, per the Manufacturer.

Main Entry: freely Pronunciation: 'frE-lE Function: adverb : in a free manner: as a : of one's own accord <left home freely> b : with freedom from external control <a freely elected government> c : without restraint or reservation <spent freely on clothes> d : without hindrance <a gate swinging freely>
From my experience, N2O is freely available. Not free, but freely.
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Darrell D. Mobley wrote:

Not quite, if you knew what you were talking about. NO (pure) is not freely available. The stuff for "speed shops" has an additional gas so that you don't try to do "hits" off the tank... NO is regulated, and you can only buy the "pure stuff" with a permit.
Now tell me, oh folks that claim that APCP shouldn't be regulated, why NO is currently regulated! Call your local "gas" supplier and ask for pure NO... You can't buy it, and haven't been able to do so for a long time.....
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NO regulation is by the ATF? Oh that's right. Model rocket APCP is regulated as an explosive, which it isn't, by the ATF.
NO is regulated because it is an abused drug.
You want bitch about something regulated, try to buy pseudophedhoweverinthehellitsspelled for those winter sniffles.

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Beg to differ, Woody. I purchase industrial nitrous from a welding supplier. It contains no odorant properties, and is essentially identical to medical nitrous, just comes in a tank without a flow-limiting valve. There is a requirement for locked storage, weekly inventory, and a discharge record, but that's it.
I grant that I had to dance a bit to establish my bona fides (copies of my rocketry cards & driver's license, and a statement of intended use). At this point I simply call and ask them to order a new tank... they don't keep the industrial product on hand, only medical. A few days later and I'm good to go.
Oh, yeah.... $2/lb
Kevin OClassen
PS> that's N20, not NO
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Let me add that given my druthers, I would prefer nitrous with the odorants. It's an excellent leak check and safety device. The only reason I use the industrial is its' price and availability.
Also, the storage and inventory requirements are not specific to nitrous, but apply to about 30 different industrial gases that pose some sort of hazard or can be used in processes illegal or damaging. With N2O I'm told that besides the obvious danger of having some fool kill themselves through "recreational" use, nitrous oxide is used in the manufacture of some explosive compounds (I don't know which, if any, and I don't *want* to know). I can't seem to locate my copy of the sheet, so I can't offer any statutory reference at this time, but I recall the requirements were attributed to "Homeland Security."
Kevin O
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Our club buys the N20 that has sulphur dioxide added for around $2.25 a pound from Airgas in 64 lb cylinders. Technically, we bought the tank, but Airgas just swaps tanks when we need a new one. We are on our third or fourth tank as we launch quite a few Hypertech Ms.
Brian Elfert
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Brian Elfert wrote:

Yeah, when I inquired at Airgas they told me no problem but only in the big tanks. While I'd love the cost advantage of Airgas + big tanks, I don't like hauling the heavier tanks around. I recently traded down on my O2 tank for easier transport.
FWIW, I consider the odorant a plus also.
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