BALLS pictures

The rules do allow it.

Yes

True.

One thing about MDRA is that they do not want motors used if they come from a source that might be shipping improperly. The club officers have been very clear about wanting everything being done properly.

Phil Stein Phil Stein

Reply to
Phil Stein
Loading thread data ...

Brian E. wrote:

Reply to
RayDunakin

In article , Phil Stein wrote:

Nobody can fight THAT logic :)

Brucie

King of HPR magazine King of TRA HQ King of NFPA committee TRA seat King of lawsuit committee

Naaaaaaaa, he has no power now that he has been removed for his financial and behavioral irregularities :)

From da King:

THICK OR THIN? From Bruce Kelly

This will be a long editorial, but I hope you will take the time to read it.

It is about this magazine and will answer questions you may have about production, distribution, and content.

It has been several years since I have talked about this magazine, about how readers can contribute articles, and what makes HPR what it is.

[ why would it be severalyearsifitispublished9 timesa yearfor10 years?]

I received some comments after the last two issues, best represented by three letters (or e-mail messages) directed to me. I will use those letters--unedited--to help explain what this magazine was, what it is, and what it may become. Since the authors of these letters did not give me permission to use their names, I will preserve their anonymity.

First Letter

Bruce,

I received the March issue of HPR magazine and please allow me to offer my approval [for] a job well done. I renewed my subscription this year after a one-year hiatus and I have not regretted it one bit. While any rocketeer would like a four hundred page issue every month, I realize being in the graphic arts industry myself, that it is, after all, a business. More importantly, that content that I now see in your publication is more poignant particularly when juxtaposed with the other HPR related magazine. Perhaps it always was. Maybe after all the distractions of the past year or two that I've distilled what I want out of rocketry into its essence and found what it's really all about. We all like the flash, sound and fury of hot projects flying, but there's so much more to it than that. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, "The will to win is not nearly so important as the will to prepare to win." What disturbs me is perhaps my perception of the hobby becoming "more show and less go." We see lots of video and pictures of huge projects going up only to lose arguments to the laws of physics. Sure it's great to be on TV, but I somehow get the sense that there are some who feel that that is the goal rather than the product of a job well done. What makes for good video doesn't necessarily make for good rocketry. Without being too melodramatic, I found this issue [March] to be particularly well done. It lays it all out there--successes and failures exposed for all the world to see. So everyone thinks, "Geez these guys are certifiably dangerous!" Then you add your articles and snap everything back into perspective. Those among us who unfortunately came late into Tripoli are well advised to read the "Balls 101" article and take it to heart. Those among us who actually want to learn something would be well advised to pick apart the report from the "Balls 2002" article (and the rest of it for that matter) and respectfully learn from those who dared to push it beyond the edge. Those who would wish to see more regulation placed on this hobby we cherish--and the very livelihood of several others who cherish it even more--are very well advised to read your follow-up article about the proper time and place for these types of events. Lastly, those who gave you so much grief in the past should recognize the work you did on behalf of us all. As Tripoli grew and became more and more diverse, satisfying all the members must have been quite onerous. So the issues with the ATFE and insurance are thrown in on top of that and, well, I feel

privileged that people such as yourself were running the show. So thanks. It's very good to see that you still have the passion. Personally, I still have the dream to participate in Balls. I may have come a long way, but there's still much to learn before I become a Les Derkovitz. Maybe I never will be. You see, I have this strong desire to get my stuff back, so it may be some time! Right now, I am working on perfecting the structures and recovery systems of those 40,000-foot projects that everyone wants to fly so that when you report my flight, it had better be good news! Hey I made it halfway so far... So from a grateful rocketeer, thanks and keep it coming! (Subscriber from Illinois)

[Excuse generator on full. Content weak at best. Frequency poor. Page count irregular yet this moron finds it as good news? No wonder he is a subscriber and Kellyball published this myopic letter!]

Second Letter

Bruce,

I just received the most recent HPR issue. Frankly, I am very shocked and displeased with the last two HPR issues I have received. They are but a skeleton of what the subscriber/members are due and should expect. Through the years of getting too few monthly issues, I was somewhat understanding due to all of your duties competing for your time. Being

[As if demands on time SHOULD effect the magazine schedule. Ever hear of delegation?]

TRA president, HPR publisher, LDS member, BATF dealings and a family man left precious little time for anything. How you even managed to get the issues out you did, I'll never know. I listened (in one ear/out the other) as people ragged on about getting shorted on HPR magazines. It is very admirable how you weathered all the "garbage" that has been thrown at you the last couple of years. I would have thrown my hands up years ago. So, I tried [to] "cut you some slack" because of all I knew was demanded of you. However, I feel that Club members did come out on the short end of the stick. It was my hope that after you relinquished some of your duties the HPR magazine would get back on an even track. I am usually one not to ever complain, even when it is blatantly clear it is warranted. I have to speak out to you because of how strongly I feel about how anemic these issues are. They are barely a shadow of what they should be. Is this how future issues are going to be? If so, I will not renew my subscription. If that means not renewing my TRA membership, so be it. That is a very extreme statement for me to make. I do feel that if you continue to only produce what is, in my opinion, a substandard magazine, it might be advisable to let someone else tackle the job. Bruce, I hope you take this letter with the intent it is written. I have the utmost respect for you and what you have done for the TRA and the HPR hobby. (Former (?) subscriber from Texas)

Third Letter

Dear Mr. Kelly,

I'm editor of education magazines: Teach! -- for professionals and Learn!

-- for parents. I found (and bought) the February edition of High Power Rocketry in Borders in Singapore. I really enjoyed reading it.

[One shot newsstand buyer insulated from the foibles of bad schedule maintenaince and crappy content as they can leave those on the shelf if they want, and do. This sort of buyer is happy to get ANY magazine on the subject at all.]

Sadly I don't think anyone here could take up rocketry. Singapore is a crowded city-state, about the same size as Rhode Island, that contains Southeast Asia's busiest hub airport plus a few military air bases. But I still think our readers would be interested in reading an article on the subject. Would it be possible to buy an article and photographs from your magazine on the Rockets for Schools meet in May? Also, do you know of any scholarships that might allow students from Asia to visit the United States and take part in such events? Hope to hear from you soon. (From an educator in Singapore)

Valid Points

Each of these letters are different, however, they represent most of the comments we have received these past few weeks. The first letter (from Illinois) was very encouraging while the second letter (from Texas) was personally disappointing. The third letter (from Singapore) illustrates how far reaching around the globe we are and what impact the magazine has through this kind of distribution. And, as we reach new readers, it also illustrates the need for

very basic articles from time to time. Each letter has validity, but I want to mainly focus on the first two letters. Our friend from Illinois understands what I tried to accomplish in the March issue. It's as if he read my mind. Conversely, our friend from Texas, obviously a long-time supporter of HPR magazine, understands why things were

rough these past few years but he does not like the way things are right now. As you continue to read, you will see how he has the power to make HPR magazine

what he wants it to be--and so do you!

HPR Magazine -- What It Was

In the beginning when founded, first as the Tripolitan and later as High Power Rocketry, this has been a magazine about rocketry. It started as a newsletter covering model and experimental activities of a small Pittsburgh club. Then, as the hobby evolved, it grew from a four-page newsletter into a magazine with "high power" as its main focus. However, it was still about rocketry--all kinds of rocketry. For they are all related, one growing out of the other.

Over the years the content evolved in other ways, to include several "regular" columns, including Manufacturer's News, Product Reviews, and Section Soundings. Other "specialized" features followed, such as "Rocket Art" which we ran for as long as the author could produce the articles for it. (He is now working on more!) The first magazines also included many pages of ads, both paid and donated space for launch ads. Articles ran the gamut: low and hi-tech, construction, how-to, special projects, aerospace, NASA, and high power launch coverage--a favorite.

HPR Magazine -- What It Is

In principal, HPR is still the same. I say in principal because some of the things we have been used to in the magazine have been missing for a while. Let's review some of those things and I'll explain why they have been absent

and my plan to bring most of them back.

Commercial Advertising--When I brought the magazine back onto a regular publishing schedule last July,

[What? Basedon what criterion? "In principal"?]

I purposely kept advertising at a bare minimum.

[Because nobody would send you their money. You know what real magazines do when they have issues and problems? They run the ads gratis or "bill on delivery" not eliminate them altogether. Advertisers same. If you had no ads it is because vendors refused to advertise in a crooked operation with bad public perception.]

After being out of production for a while,

[Was this while, "When I brought the magazine back onto a regular publishing schedule last July "?]

it was important for me to get some "articles" out quickly. Since then, I have let advertisers know they are welcome to advertise. However, as the number of paid ads continues to increase, we will be limiting advertising to only eight pages per issue (not including covers). One complaint we had over the last two years is that there were too many ads, so this is why we've placed limits. The ad content right now has not reached this limit. Advertising is a matter of choice. If you want to see more of them in HPR, you can encourage the people you do business with to run them. But if they don't, it just leaves more space for articles. Either way, you win.

Launch Ads--After 9/11 and the AeroTech fire the following month, the economy

was as bad for us as it was for most of you. The launch ads in past issues were "complimentary." They were run for free, at my expense. I had to cut back to keep the magazine in the black. This was a business decision. Last fall I e-mailed Prefects telling them I would restore the service of running free launch ads if someone would volunteer to collect and prepare them for each issue. I

did not have any takers until recently. Dale Windsor has stepped forward and

offered to do this job, so you can send your launch ads to him. In other words, this service is about to return, at my expense, and thanks to Dale's volunteer efforts. Prefecture Listing--It's back! Beginning with this issue, we have a listing of all Prefects and their contact information (see page 7). It has been reformatted to fit the new magazine size, but it's still free!

Manufacturer's News--This column has been put aside because the editor of this column has not sent us anything. We will eventually return MN, but I cannot tell you right now when that will be. When it does return, we will have one major policy change. Only those who advertise in HPR (even if occasionally) will be allowed to have their products mentioned in this column.

Product Reviews--This column has also returned (see page 14). I had one old one in my files that we did not run. It has been updated and re-edited for this issue. Bruce Kilby, the column editor, will have new items to review in the near future.

Section Soundings--This column as presented before will never return. We are in the process of redesigning SS to focus on Prefecture activities. Look for it in the near future.

Articles--Now we are getting to the heart of the matter. Even in the so-called "glory days," some people complained about the articles. They would say, "not enough" tech articles, or "not enough" launch articles, or "not enough" of this or of that. Not everyone will be pleased with every article we produce. That is just the way it is. We are a multi-faceted hobby, where each member is attracted by a particular aspect of Rocketry. That is what makes us so exciting and so unique, and that is why every article cannot appeal to everyone. There are some who complain about the NASA reprints we occasionally produce. But hold on! We get as much praise for running them. Critics of those reprints say, "I already know about that stuff," or, "Those [articles] are available on the Internet." Good grief, if we use that logic, we would only publish one article ever about rocket construction and tell everyone who wants a construction article

to refer to the one we ran five years ago! And what about our readers who are not on the Internet? Should they be excluded from learning what some of you already know just because of their unfortunate circumstances of not having Internet access or who might be new to the hobby? This magazine is about education. Don't we have an obligation to educate another generation of rocketeers? Sure, the "old timers" know it, but the age group of our readers is a so changing. And if we are allowing them to make their own motors, we darn well better educate them about what they are getting in to! Heck, why don't you contribute some of your knowledge? Make a difference

and help others! These articles may be on the Internet, but they are not all accurate. I'll let you in on a little secret. Most of those older NASA documents have technical errors which have been corrected in the versions we publish, along with some additional technical updates. For example, I cannot remember the exact article, but before press time Chuck Rogers called to make one of those technical corrections. He said, "Yes, what you have is what was originally published but it is wrong. If people use that equation, they'll have a major cato when

their motor ignites." The NASA reprints will continue to run, from time to time. We have people who like them, because they are one of those many facets of rocketry. We will probably run another one in the next issue. It is a rare document about liquid engines. We have had requests for liquid propellant and liquid engine

articles. Now most of you are probably saying, "OK, I can live with that--as long as the content in the other issues is good and interests me."

Issue Content

OK, how can it be good and interest you? Since the beginning, the content has been controlled by our readers, and mostly by members of Tripoli. No kidding! Editors usually do that control thing, but not this one. I have only out-right rejected one article. I print the articles people send me. Therefore, if you don't like the content of HPR, don't blame me, I'm just an editor. I write something occasionally, but my job is to lay out the magazine, get it to press, and get it sent to our subscribers. Right now, we have a shortage of articles. I have a few that were sent to me that were not published due to my involvement with regulatory issues, but

I'll eventually publish them even though they may be old. Right now, however, my priority is to get the new stuff published, as it comes in, within a reasonable amount of time. Printing the newest stuff first is a major part of the recovery process of this magazine as well as the hobby. If we produced a couple of thick magazines right now, I would not have enough material to run others until late in the fall. We are going to have a few thin ones until more articles start rolling in.

Contributors

Without contributors, we would have nothing. Some contribute more than others and go well beyond the "second mile." Take, for example, Ed Miller. Ed has contributed articles in 13 out of the last 24 issues. He is the sole author of 16 articles and co-author of one more. Les Derkovitz has also become a regular contributor. In this issue he gives us insight into why we have had deployment problems at high altitudes and provides a solution. Can you imagine what this magazine would be like, what this hobby would be like, if everyone contributed even one time to this cause? These two people have complained about things, but they have always backed it up with a willingness to be a part of the solution rather than to further "fester" the problem. Talk is cheap. Ed and Les are movers and shakers--men of action-- in the HPR hobby today. We are looking for more people like them, but thankfully there are others-- too many more to mention. I salute all of you.

Why Not Pay For Articles?

Some think that if we paid for articles we might get more of them. Maybe so, but we are not going to go down that road. There are two reasons we will

not pay for articles. First, we are not big enough to make a significant payment for articles. We already donate (or contribute) generously to the hobby and to Tripoli. For example, just this past month we gave away over 3,000 copies of HPR to help prefectures grow the hobby in their area. We have donated many, many issues over the years. At LDRS last year we donated over 2,500 copies of various issues.

(If you are keeping track, that is over 5,500 issues contributed in less than a year.) I have already mentioned, above, our complimentary launch ad program. We have donated this space for many years, along with Prefecture Listings and TRA Membership Applications. The full color LDRS ad in this issue? That is donated space worth $345.00 every time we run it. It is my understanding that our competition charges for those ads. We never have and (as long as we can afford it) never will charge for an LDRS ad. In the past ten years, we have run over 116 full-page ads, 91 half-page ads, and over 584 quarter-page ads for free. If you add up the complimentary advertising HPR has donated to Tripoli, it totals over $78,500.00. In addition, the complimentary issues sent to prefectures, trade shows, and to those requesting copies from the TRA web site, far, far exceeds this number in total value. Again, this has been donated from the beginning of independent ownership. It was not a demand of Tripoli for me to

run free launch ads. It was my own choice. I did not say any of this to boast, but for your education. I doubt if more than five people are even aware of the level of donated materials and donated time we have given to Tripoli and to this hobby. Want to see all of this go away? It will if we open Pandora's box and start paying for articles. I cannot afford to do both. My decisions have been to do what is best for the hobby and I think our contributors feel the same way. Only one person has ever asked to be paid for a submission and we did not publish it. Secondly, I believe donated articles are better, higher quality articles. They come from the heart and are not produced or motivated from the wallet. Let me explain it with this story, paraphrased from the teachings of Zig Z iglar. There were two men--friends--who went looking for work together in the

1800's. They were hired by a railroad company. Many years later, while one of them was working in the hot sun, a company train approached. One of the rail cars was the Presidential car owned by the railroad. Inside, the Vice-president looked out the window and recognized someone familiar, so he left the comfort of his rail car to visit his old friend. They had not seen each other in many years, so it was a pleasant visit for both of them. As the car pulled away, another worker asked,

"So you know the Vice-president?"

"Yes, I do. We were hired together on the same day."

"How is it, then, he is Vice-president of the railroad and you are just a rail man?"

"The reason he is Vice-president and I am not is simple. The day we were hired, I went to work for a dollar-twenty-five a day. My friend went to work for the railroad."

So I put this question to you. As readers of this magazine what do you want, articles written for twenty bucks, or articles written for you and for the sake of the hobby? I think our company position on this issue is clear. We will not be paying money, any amount, for articles. There may come a time when we will offer annual awards for the "best of" in a category, but not until we are standing on more solid ground.

"OK, if I send you something, what's in it for me?"

One important lesson from the story above is that a worthy contribution to a good cause has its own reward. Take the first and third letters for instance. They were addressed to me, the editor, but they are really a compliment to the authors of the articles in those issues! The greatest reward for any contribution is the respect of your peers. Just think how grateful you are for the articles you enjoy reading. Now, imagine a few thousand people like you feeling the same way about something you contributed! The heartfelt gratitude you will feel from your friends outweighs and outlasts the temporary value of twenty bucks! Just imagine how you will feel

when they call you all excited and say, "Hey, just got my HPR in the mail, and you're in it!"

"I'm convinced! Tell me what to do!"

Submitting something to HPR is simple. The first thing you need to do is to decide what you can contribute. (Everyone can contribute something.) Are you good at rocketry construction or design? If so, the next time you build a project, take photos during the construction process and then write a story to fit the photos you took. Are you technically inclined? If so, what are you doing with your rocketry projects to include your technical talents? When you figure that out, write something about it. Have you ever bought a kit that you found a way to improve upon while building it? Take pictures during construction and tell us about it. And have you attended a launch lately? Did you take any pictures or do you know someone who did? All you need now is to borrow the flight cards, obtain some photos, and you are ready to tell the rest of us about the launch. There is almost no end to what can be put in print about this hobby. All we need are those willing to share their experiences with everyone else. Are you concerned that you are not a good writer? Don't sweat that. Write what you can and leave the rest up to us. That's what editors are for. You don't have to worry about the article layout. Just send raw text, digital or

paper photos, drawings, etc. and we'll take care of everything else. If you need help, give me a call or drop me an e-mail. I'm here almost every day.

Some Projects Put On Hold

Before I move on to my closing thoughts, I would like to mention some things we were working on before 9/11. We had two special issues planned. The first was a "Buyer's Guide." Almost every industry has produced an annual Buyer's Guide except for our industry. I had several commitments to produce the issue. Then, a week or so after 9/11, the key participants dropped out. Perhaps as the rocketry economy improves we can attempt to do this again. The second project put on hold was an "international" issue. We will get this project rolling again soon. Anyone wanting to contribute to this issue,

please let me know. We want to know what rocketry activities you are involved with in your country. The third thing to go after 9/11 was hobby store distribution. We had that going pretty good, but the economy has made it difficult. (Many stores went out of business.) It became too difficult to manage and to produce magazines

at the same time, so hobby stores are still off line for now. One piece of good news was the reacquisition of a distributor who sends magazines all over the world. The third letter from our Singapore friend illustrates this.

[blah, blah, blah about issues not relevent to a magazine that IS NOT COMING OUT and not DELEGATED to a competent person capable of doing it.]

HPR Magazine -- What It May Become

I may be the editor, but remember the content is up to you. Don't like what you see? Then do something about it. When one issue goes to press, I fire up the computer, open a new Quark document, and behold! a new canvas is presented to me. It is clean and bright waiting for someone to lay something on it. That someone is you! If you send nothing, then nothing of yours will get published. And, since this is Tripoli's Journal and we are preparing a detailed compilation of the

journal activities of Tripoli, you may come and go and no one will even know

you were here. You will be surprised how soon you'll be forgotten. Relying on someone else to write an article and mention your name? Don't count on it. How many articles have you seen lately--in any magazine--covering East coast launches? Hey, East coast people! I'm calling you out! Is rocketry dead back there?

Does Size Matter?

I believe most people feel it was the content that made HPR magazine great and not the physical size. The physical size of HPR was changed, like the Tripoli Report, to meet the demands of the economy. However, the magazine can still be what you want it to be if you will allow it. It's ironic. I have a set of books that are considered the "greatest classics in literature." HPR magazine is about a quarter-inch taller and a full inch wider than The Red Badge of Courage. It is a little larger than Melville's Moby Dick and Defoe's Robinson Crusoe. And, more ironic still--HPR is larger than Dickens' A Tale of Two Cities. The irony is that for rocketry it really is "the best of times" or "the worst of times." It depends on your point of view. Recent discussions about magazine size reminds me of the little boy in the park who watched a man selling balloons. To attract attention, the man with the balloons would let one go occasionally. First there was a red one, then later a yellow one. Finally he released a white balloon which, like the others, reached high into the sunny, blue sky. The little boy was concerned because he did not see a balloon his own color. So he tugged on the man's shirtsleeve. "Hey, mister," the boy asked pointing to the sky. "If you let go of a brown balloon would it go as high as those?" The man looked at the boy and wisely said, "Of course it would. It's what's on the inside of the balloons that makes them rise." When people "praised" the great issues of the past, they were not referring to the physical size of the magazine. No one ever said, "Hey, great issue! And I especially love the size." Perhaps this is what our friend from Illinois had in mind when he said, "More importantly, that content that I now see in your publication is more poignant particularly when juxtaposed with the other HPR related magazine. Perhaps it always was. Maybe after all the distractions of the past year or two that

I've distilled what I want out of rocketry into its essence and found what it's really all about."

Conclusion

Our friend from Texas asked an important question, referring to his point of view about the content of the last two issues, "Is this how future issues

are going to be?" My response to him was, "The answer is up to you and other

readers. If you don't like something, you have the power to make changes. All you have to do is to contribute something you feel is worthwhile for our readers." So this issue is off the press and in your hands. Having an opportunity to make an impact on the future is exciting. It is a challenge and an awesome responsibility. My computer is on, and I have a blank page in front of me. Are you ready to become the artist for the next issue? The canvas is waiting.

-- B Kelly

[ "You can look for this."

- Larry Brown in the 1972 Enerjet catalog ]

==

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Oh? So how do they determine the legality of each individual EX'er?

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

How was Bruce "removed"? Didn't he voluntarily step down as president? Did he even run for the board in the last election?

Brian Elfert

Reply to
Brian Elfert

Reply to
Brian Elfert

He ran and was BARELY defeated.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

We know who you are...(;-)

Fred

Jerry Irv> Oh? So how do they determine the legality of each individual EX'er? >

Reply to
W. E. Fred Wallace

I remember now. He announced he didn't want to be president before the elections, but still ran for BOD. The board picks the president and maybe he was told he wouldn't be picked, so he retired instead.

He still wasn't "removed" as you say.

Brian Elfert

Reply to
Brian Elfert

He said he wouldn't be president beofre the election but, still ran for BoD. He was not elected to the BoD. SO, Jerry if he ran everything & fixed the vote, how did this happen?

Phil Ste>Jerry Irv>

Phil Stein

Reply to
Phil Stein

The only limitations are that the maker of the motor is present, is a current TRA member, and is certified to the proper level. There's nothing limiting a person to a single team, so one individual could provide motors for several teams.

Reply to
RayDunakin

This is a board ember of MDRA posting this shit.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Because he couldn't even get magazines out to fix the vote as usual. Not even that many magazines:)

Also when was the last time the ballots arrived less than 2 weeks late?

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Was the O10000 ever certified? Frank's membership was suspended for a time.

Brian Elfert

Reply to
Brian Elfert

I thought it was.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Oh no!!, I guess that makes me a candidate for another imaginary restrictive trade lawsuit.

Fred

Jerry Irv> >

Reply to
W. E. Fred Wallace

No Fred. You indicated to somehow "vette" the process of transportation.

So I asked the reasonable and obvious question, "Oh? So how do they determine the legality of each individual EX'er?"

You replied,"We know who you are...(;-)", which stinks of typical TRA Jerry-mandering". Somethhing MDRA has represented to me in the past is not the case, when INVITING me to come and BRING MOTORS and fly.

I was hoping for an answer that would encourage me to FLY back east and GO TO A LAUNCH for FUN at MDRA.

Some of us fly rockets for fun still.

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Jerry, As anyone else, you are welcome to join MDRA; and use high power rocket motors that meet the following criteria, within your TRA/NAR HPR certification level:

  1. Commercial motors known to be legally manufactured. We obviously know whom the legal manufactures are.

  1. Motors, you indicate as an individual and/or group of individuals present at the launch have made. We may ask an individual and/or group the question; "who made the motor?", However and for the most part, our RSO will not question the registered flyer's answer and will allow the motor to be used if the answer is; "I made it or we made it".

Notice, there is no (:-) or (;-) at the end of any sentence...

Fred Wallace. MDRA BOD, and unapologetic "Chief Worry Wart"

Jerry Irv> >

Reply to
W. E. Fred Wallace

You pulled this crap when you trashed Jim Turner after his death.

You never change Jerry.

Steve

Reply to
FlyEmFast

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