CSI: BATFE Stooges Unit

Dang. Only saw the other thread after posting this.

Sorry.

Zooty

If the majority of the American public weren't gullible idiots, most of the politicians today wouldn't be in office. Why should we expect them to play rocketry any differently than they play any other emptional topic they can exploit: health care, insurance, defense, crime, social security, welfare, trade policies, etc?

zoot wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

I had to laugh at using HF acid as a glass cleaner,considering HF acid is used to ETCH glass.

Oh it'll clean glass... just CLEAN OFF

CLR and other common glass cleaners contain HF acid. We used a 10% solution of HF acid to clean glass when I was in the Air Force; it worked great.

Mario Perdue NAR #22012 Sr. L2 for email drop the planet

"X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission concluded."

I checked CLR on the net. The MSDS sheet can be found at:

http://65.170.37.131/pdffiles//GENERALPDF/Jelmar-CLRCalciumLimeRustRemover-V2.PDF TinyURL:

The MSDS sheet lists

1. Water 7732-18-5 NE 68-74
2. Glycolic Acid 79-14-1 NE 13-16
3. Sulfamic Acid 5329-14-6 NE 3-6
4. Disodium Capryloamphodipropionate 68815-55-4 NE 4-7
5. Ethylene Glycol n-Butyl Ether 111-76-2 20 ppm TLV 1-4
6. Citric Acid

as the ingredients.

Here's the URL for some good information for working with HF:

TinyURL: From "Both liquid and vapor forms of HF cause severe and slow healing burns on contact with the skin, eyes, or mucous membranes. Burns from dilute solutions of HF or low concentrations of HF vapor might not be immediately visible or painful. Burns from HF solutions with less than

50% concentration may not be felt immediately. B urns from HF solutions of 20 % or less concentration can take hours to become visible. The burns are characterized by appearance of a tough white coagulation with persistent excruciating pain, progressive destruction of tissue which could include decalcification and necrosis of bone."

Zooty

That ain't nuthin, Mario. Back in the day, we used to clean the leaded sealant off our hands with a scrub brush and MEK! Same for the green zinc chromate primer.

steve

http://65.170.37.131/pdffiles//GENERALPDF/Jelmar-CLRCalciumLimeRustRemover-V2.PDF>

The only home cleaning product that I know of that contains HF is 'Whink'. It's also the only product I know of that does a good job of removing rust stains.

From the MSDS sheet:

Incompatibility (Materials to Avoid) Avoid alkalis and oxidizers, bleaching agents or other chemicals. Also metals and glass.

Whink is 2.5-3% HF. That's far more dilute than the supposed window cleaning HF the other person mentioned.

At 2.5-3%, the stuff rates a 3 on the HMIS health rating. The bottle says, in part:

DANGER; MAY BE FATAL OR CAUSE PERMANENT DAMAGE. CAUSES SEVERE BURNS WHICH MAY NOT BE IMMEDIATELY PAINFUL OR VISIBLE. VAPOR HARMFUL.

This is not stuff you use in a room to clean your windows.

Still, this isn't the main point. The main point is the government is deliberately feeding the American public false information in order to affect the public's perception of a policy the government has instituted.

Zooty

I'll attribute that to poor memory; it's been awhile since I've had any CLR around but I was pretty sure it had HF acid. However, I know that the presoak used by many car washes, Appeal, contains it. Also Brite 10 is a cleaner for aluminum and glass that contains HF acid. I'm absolutely certain we used it in the USAF.

Mario Perdue NAR #22012 Sr. L2 for email drop the planet

"X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission concluded."

I think I may have seen some cleaning sprays for wire wheels at the auto parts store that contained HF... seemed a bit dodgy to put that in a consumer product if you ask me.

-dave w

Been there, done that. :-)

Mario Perdue NAR #22012 Sr. L2 for email drop the planet

"X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission concluded."

Actually, I don't know why I said wire wheels - I think they were for cleaning cast "mag" wheels. (I'll have to remember to take a look the next time I'm there...)

-dw

There's several cleaners with Appeal in their name. How about a URL to the MSDS sheet?

HF dissolves glass. Brite 10 is an aluminum cleaner that has the feature that short application times with rapid rinsing or neutralization won't damage glass.

It also has to be used outside.

Interestingly, the MSDS for Brite 10

only lists :

Sulfuric Acid 1 mg/m3 1 mg/m3 7664-93-9

It's possible it's undergone a reformulation, or the MSDS is really screwed up.

In any case, HF is not something someone's going to use to clean glass in their home - it's not a glass cleaner, requires special rinsing or neutralization, outgasses a truly nasty chemical, etc.

Did you work inside? in a closed hotel room with the stuff?

Zooty

The government is exempt from everything hazmat. They alone are allowed to use what works and damn the consequences.

It seems that is a characteristic of any authority tryig to maintain power against facts and public opinion whether the U.S. Government or Tripoli.

Jerry

I have seen Rosenfield clean production greases and such off the external surfaces of SU motors with MEK to accept the labels that make the motor jam in the rocket when they heat up and melt.

He did that with a lot of them too.

Jerry

Just ask the people who worked with beryllium for the nuclear weapons programs.

The government knew that the workers were being exposed to damaging levels. To keep costs down, the government decided keep the toxicity data secret.

It wasn't because there was no other reasonable way to protect our country.

The government lied because it was cheaper to not warn the workers.

Zooty

Yep, nothing works better on fuel tank sealant (8802 types A, B, E or F)... MEK rocks... Until it kills you. I saw the fumes curl a guy's contacts once. Nobody knew he wore contacts, and he didn't know about MEK fumes... near eyesight mishap.

Even less than 10 years ago, we were bathing elbow deep in it after a integral fuel cell repair job. After it was eliminated, the only thing that works is wearing it away... or using a rough scrubbing pad... and losing some superficial skin.

~ Duane Phillips.