[F-FT] Level 1 rocket

That's not correct.

Easy accces is STILL easy access at least for now until the mongers kill that off with FUD ;-)

you can mail order 29 and 38 easy access from

Try commonwealth displays

You can buy your K and L motors on site to avoid LEUP problems.

this has worked for most users since 1994

I looked, and they have the reloads, but where do I find the (Aerotech) casings? Who would you recommend? And do folks prefer (for example) Aerotech casings vs. Dr. Rocket casings?

David Erbas-White

Mostly, only dr. rocket casings are used in HPR, ok mostly.

just how things are. they sell the Dr. Rocket casings for AT reloads, like most dealers ;-)

Aero-tech is interested in the re-load market , not the casing market it seems.

does not matter, they are the same, only color is different. cut on same CNC machine, yes

aerotech and Dr rocket casings are pretty much identical (the only difference is the color and a sticker on the aerotech cases), so buy whatever is cheaper / available.

Great Lakes Hobbies seems to have fantastic prices on hardware and easy access reloads, but I'm not sure that they actually have everything in stock that they list on their website.

No LEUP has been required for propellant actuated devices since at least

1972.

NO size limit. Shuttle SRB included (Visa accepted).

Jerry

You are forced to buy Dr. Rocket.

You don't understand the motor resale business.

It's not much of a lob, but a LOC-IV will fly on an F50 or similar.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

I disagree. I'm not a big fan of short stubby rockets in general, and especially not for certification flights.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Pretty much... a lot of us just buy our stuff at the launches and let the dealers worry about permits and shipping.

(This is one advantage of reloads that doesn't seem to get mentioned as much: it allows the builder to test-fit engine mounting with an inert casing, before introducing the propellant.)

-dave w

David,

Dr Rocket casings are pretty much the standard these days. The are the same as Aerotech cases. The RMS 29-180/240 system is a great starter for L1.

If you have a vendor that attends your launches, it would be a good idea to see if they have the cases you want, and just get it from them.

ROL auction, Ebay, other club members, etc. I have only bought 4 new casings the rest of mine are used from auctions. I have both AT, Dr. Rocket, CTI, and Ellis Mountain. one of our onsite vendor will loan you the case if you purchase the reload from him. I currently have no intention of getting a LEUP. As long as I can buy and Fly I will.

Aerotech and Dr. Rocket hardware are mechanically identical and compatible. They're made on the same production facility - there's no difference until the dye-anodizing and labeling.

-dave w

Flying HPR doesn't mean you have to jump in with both feet. The AT

29/180 hardware has loads that A: do not require LEUP and B: only require FAA notification as opposed to waiver (you don't know how badly I wanted to use FFA instead ;-)

Okay, another really stupid question (maybe more than one)...

I don't really have a 'clear' answer in reading the NAR certification materials. Does a level 1 certification require that I fly my level 1 rocket as a 'virgin' for the cert? In other words, can I build a rocket, fly it on a G or two to test it out and get a feel for its performance, and then do the certification flight on an H? Or must the certification flight be the 'first flight' for that rocket? I know that common sense says fly it 'til you're ready to cert, but all of the stories that I recall talk about folks building their rocket SPECIFICALLY for the certification, which somewhat infers that it is done that way.

Second question, what (if any) F or G motors require one to have certification in order to purchase? For example, it's pretty clear that I can only buy one H motor in preparation for my certification, but is there any limit on the F and G purchases? The reason I ask is that if I have to pay a hazmat fee for shipment, I'd like to buy a few F/G reloads at the same time. But, the F/G reloads for these are listed as 'high power' motors, even though they're not any more powerful than the (for example) 29mm F/G reloads listed for 'model rockets'.

Third question, I've seen a recent comment (in relation to using spacers in engine mounts) discussing how the ejection charge might char the inside of the tube, making it harder to put a longer engine casing into the rocket later on. Is this a 'real' or a 'perceived' problem? If real, how do you guys get around it? Do you put in a disposable paper tube that is the same diameter (kind of a spacer, but since there is no thrust ring it's not structural)?

Fourth question, is it required for the rocket to be painted for a level

1 certification? I don't mean (necessarily) unfinished, but perhaps with just filling done or primer or something? I don't have much time/space for painting, and typically wait quite a bit between coats/colors, so I might have progressed to having primered a rocket but not finished the painting by the time a launch rolls around. And I'd like to get the level 1 certification done prior to NSL this year, if possible, so that I can do some larger flights at NSL.

Fifth question, for a level 1 certification it doesn't appear that there is much 'preparation' necessary (in terms of paperwork/notification), is there? It looks as though if I launch at a place with a valid waiver, and the properly certified guys are present and agree to witness it and check off the boxes, it's valid, isn't it? In other words, there's no requirement for pre-approval from NAR headquarters or anything, all of the paperwork is simply sent in 'after the fact', right?

BTW, at this point, I'm kind of leaning towards the PML 1/4 Patriot with the 38mm mount. I also looked at the 'AeroPack' engine retainer for this, and would appreciate any comments. If you use this type of engine retainer, can you still use the 38mm-29mm adapter? Or does this type of retainer preclude this? Any pros/cons on this selection of kit for a level 1 certification?

Sorry for all of the bandwidth, and I realize that many of these questions may seem 'dumb', but I appreciate the help.

David Erbas-White

Yes, with an appropriate size rocket. G80's are good for this.

It's common, but no need to: I built a rocket, flew it a few times on G's, and then did an H... if you pick the rocket properly, a lot of the common

2 inch "low end HPR" kits work well for this. (Put in a 38mm mount so you can use Pro38 motors...)

Bare naked unpainted is fine... paint just add weight and attracts the attention of the rocket gods, who (as we all know) like to keep the pretty ones.

-dave w

Many do but I know of no requirement to do so. I wish I could have flown my PML Endevour on an G before I did my Cert. I don't think I would have been as nervous when I did certify.

None. The 29mm andf 3mm systems are mostly "High Power" but the smaller cases support F and G reloads.

I normally use reloadable motors so spacers are not a problem. On the few rockets that I have that use single use motors I have made a full length spacer. I also clean the residue out of the motor tube after flights with the shorter casings.

Again No. Flying naked for certs is allowed. It also lets RSOs, prefects, and other observers judge your construction techniques.

Correct for NAR. TRA will require you to have your membership folder as this containes your certification forms.

Looks like PML only recommends that kit on one 29mm motor and it is a single use one at that. You might want to try a different kit, one that is listed to fly on the smaller 29mm and 38mm motors. Bottom line is use a kit that YOU like I used the Endeavour because I liked it and I could use it for L1 and L2. The AeroPack retainer will allow you to use an adaptor. I like the Slim Line from Giant Leap personally as it has a metal end wit a built in 29mm motor retention system.

Don't apologize, you're asking good questions that will help you later. Shop around for kit prices etc. Use good building techniques especially with the QT .

David,

See answers below your question.

Many rocketeers will build rockets similar to the G-Force by Aerotech or Sentinel by Binder Design to learn about larger paper rockets and then progress to glassed phenolic or Quantum tubing and then even further into composites like carbon fiber but you do not have to build a rocket just for a level 1 certification flight, any rocket in your collection that will handle the appropriate motor needed for certification will suffice.

The bottom line is you can fly any rocket on any motor you want without certification but you will not be covered under the NAR or TRA insurance unless it is a certification flight or you are already certified to fly the motor your using. Most clubs will frown on rocketeers going substantially above their level of experience during club launches but going bigger in small increments is just about a requirement if you want to progress to the next level in this hobby.

You can purchase any F or G motor you want from any vendor. Some vendors charge HAZMAT fees and some don't - Shop around for the best deal.

Larger motors and rockets don't use thrust rings in the MMT so spacers aren't needed and aren't a concern. Larger rockets use heavier tubes for motor mounts and can handle the heat of the ejection charge. I'm sure some folks apply thin coats of epoxy to the MMT to increase the lifespan but generally most rocketeers lose their rockets to failed chute deployment, drifting out of sight, rocket eating trees or some other circumstance deemed most appropriate at the time by the revered Rocket Gods before the motor mount tube wears out.

No paint is required but it increases performance and helps when tracking the rocket during flight and recovery of the rocket on the ground. You don't want to paint a rocket the same color as the landing area you will be flying in. For example: A tan rocket would be tough to find in the desert and a green rocket would be hidden pretty well in a nice field with tall green grass. An all white rocket is tough to track on cloudy days and a blue rocket is tough to track on blue bird days. Always think about what would be the best contrast to the environment you will be flying in.

Correct, very easy and very basic, Level II is pretty much the same except you must take the test first. The test is not hard, the questions and answers are available from either organization and require very little knowledge about rocketry or experience if you have the ability to memorize. Don't forget though you still have to get by the RSO to launch and he or she will inspect your rocket and ask you quite a few questions to make sure you know what your doing so everyone stays safe.

I have a PML Tethys and Endeavor and I put in PML's Extended Kwik-Switch motor tube system which has a 54mm motor mount and includes a 38mm and 29mm MMT adapter. I also have a PML Black Brant X but I used a Giant Leap Slimline Retainer because of the boat tail. I use the PML motor retainer system for the other two rockets and on many other rockets as well, the small retaining screws that go into the aft centering ring are available in my local hardware store for about 30 cents each and they are the only thing needed to use the same retention system on all your larger rockets.

Some people will complain the PML adapter system restricts your use of motors but if you get the phenolic tubes and glass them you can still put your rocket up about 8,000 to 9,000 feet depending on conditions and final weight of your rocket. Although I haven't flown it yet on a 54mm motor my Tethys sims to almost 8300' on the 54mm CTI 4 grain motor. Not bad!!!

The 1/4 scale Patriot is pretty much the same rocket as the Tethys and should be great for both Level 1 and Level 2 flights. Make sure you sand the piston for free movement, put vent holes and clean the debris and soot after each flight and your deployment system should work fine. Another option for chute deployment is to build a baffle system and all the worries about the piston not working properly will go away and you still won't have to use dawg barf.

If you aren't going to use the payload bay for anything special and don't use the piston deployment system then I would recommend using the payload bay to incorporate a zipperless design and that baby should be good for many flights.

Junk the launch lugs included in the kit and get some rail buttons from

and use a rail launcher. You don't want to launch a 4 to

6 pound rocket off a 3/8" rod, it will whip too much and create problems that you don't want any part of.

Good Luck and Have Fun!!!

Andrew