[F-FT] Level 1 rocket

David Erbas-White wrote:


Yes, with an appropriate size rocket. G80's are good for this.

It's common, but no need to: I built a rocket, flew it a few times on G's, and then did an H... if you pick the rocket properly, a lot of the common 2 inch "low end HPR" kits work well for this. (Put in a 38mm mount so you can use Pro38 motors...)

Bare naked unpainted is fine... paint just add weight and attracts the attention of the rocket gods, who (as we all know) like to keep the pretty ones.
-dave w
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Many do but I know of no requirement to do so. I wish I could have flown my PML Endevour on an G before I did my Cert. I don't think I would have been as nervous when I did certify.

None. The 29mm andf 3mm systems are mostly "High Power" but the smaller cases support F and G reloads.

I normally use reloadable motors so spacers are not a problem. On the few rockets that I have that use single use motors I have made a full length spacer. I also clean the residue out of the motor tube after flights with the shorter casings.

Again No. Flying naked for certs is allowed. It also lets RSOs, prefects, and other observers judge your construction techniques.

Correct for NAR. TRA will require you to have your membership folder as this containes your certification forms.

Looks like PML only recommends that kit on one 29mm motor and it is a single use one at that. You might want to try a different kit, one that is listed to fly on the smaller 29mm and 38mm motors. Bottom line is use a kit that YOU like I used the Endeavour because I liked it and I could use it for L1 and L2. The AeroPack retainer will allow you to use an adaptor. I like the Slim Line from Giant Leap personally as it has a metal end wit a built in 29mm motor retention system.

Don't apologize, you're asking good questions that will help you later. Shop around for kit prices etc. Use good building techniques especially with the QT .
--
William Richardson ENC USNR Ret.
TRA 8703 L2
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Bill Richardson wrote:

I agree, but I've run RockSim on it, and there are other motors that will work okay (actually, some even give a 'better' projected outcome), so there are a few other engines that will work. Thanks for all of your responses, they're very helpful.
David Erbas-White
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Wrong. Don't know if there are any Fs in current production, but botthe G33 and G75 are HPR, and maybe others.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
We must have faith in our democratic system and our Constitution, and in our ability to protect at the same time both the freedom and the security of all Americans.
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Bob, I think you might be confusing the hazmat shipping regs with the "high power" definition. Neither of the G33 or G75 are high power, but I think the G104T is.
-- David
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The G33 has 72.2 grams of propellant. NFPA 1122 section 3.3.8 says a model rocket motor must have less than 62.5 grams of propellant. Section 3.3.4 says that a high power motor is one that has more than 62.5 grams of propellant.     Will
David wrote:

--
Will Marchant, NAR 13356, Tripoli 10125 L2
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Both the MR propellant limit and the FAA propellant limit disagree. The exempt value should be 125g minimum, and more properly aligned with the 1.4kg per segnemt of DOT 1.4C E-10996. This allows bates Nmotors and single grain J's.
That is what the "MODEL ROCKET" (reuseable "aero models", "toy propellant devices") should be.
Jerry

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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Me? Wrong? Not likely :-)
Go check the NAR web page and look at the G33 web page.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
This is a country which stands tallest in troubled times, a country that clings to fundamental principles, cherishes its constitutional heritage, and rejects simple solutions that compromise the values that lie at the roots of our democratic system. -- Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall, 1972
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Yes, yes, I remembered that about 60 seconds after I posted it! Sorry!
Of course, the first time I launched a G33, neither myself mor my vendor nor any officer at the launch field knew it was high power...... (or if they did, they didn't prevent me from using it!)
-- David
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Ok, ignore my previous post, I was wrong.
David
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David,
See answers below your question.

Many rocketeers will build rockets similar to the G-Force by Aerotech or Sentinel by Binder Design to learn about larger paper rockets and then progress to glassed phenolic or Quantum tubing and then even further into composites like carbon fiber but you do not have to build a rocket just for a level 1 certification flight, any rocket in your collection that will handle the appropriate motor needed for certification will suffice.
The bottom line is you can fly any rocket on any motor you want without certification but you will not be covered under the NAR or TRA insurance unless it is a certification flight or you are already certified to fly the motor your using. Most clubs will frown on rocketeers going substantially above their level of experience during club launches but going bigger in small increments is just about a requirement if you want to progress to the next level in this hobby.

You can purchase any F or G motor you want from any vendor. Some vendors charge HAZMAT fees and some don't - Shop around for the best deal.

Larger motors and rockets don't use thrust rings in the MMT so spacers aren't needed and aren't a concern. Larger rockets use heavier tubes for motor mounts and can handle the heat of the ejection charge. I'm sure some folks apply thin coats of epoxy to the MMT to increase the lifespan but generally most rocketeers lose their rockets to failed chute deployment, drifting out of sight, rocket eating trees or some other circumstance deemed most appropriate at the time by the revered Rocket Gods before the motor mount tube wears out.

No paint is required but it increases performance and helps when tracking the rocket during flight and recovery of the rocket on the ground. You don't want to paint a rocket the same color as the landing area you will be flying in. For example: A tan rocket would be tough to find in the desert and a green rocket would be hidden pretty well in a nice field with tall green grass. An all white rocket is tough to track on cloudy days and a blue rocket is tough to track on blue bird days. Always think about what would be the best contrast to the environment you will be flying in.

Correct, very easy and very basic, Level II is pretty much the same except you must take the test first. The test is not hard, the questions and answers are available from either organization and require very little knowledge about rocketry or experience if you have the ability to memorize. Don't forget though you still have to get by the RSO to launch and he or she will inspect your rocket and ask you quite a few questions to make sure you know what your doing so everyone stays safe.

I have a PML Tethys and Endeavor and I put in PML's Extended Kwik-Switch motor tube system which has a 54mm motor mount and includes a 38mm and 29mm MMT adapter. I also have a PML Black Brant X but I used a Giant Leap Slimline Retainer because of the boat tail. I use the PML motor retainer system for the other two rockets and on many other rockets as well, the small retaining screws that go into the aft centering ring are available in my local hardware store for about 30 cents each and they are the only thing needed to use the same retention system on all your larger rockets.
Some people will complain the PML adapter system restricts your use of motors but if you get the phenolic tubes and glass them you can still put your rocket up about 8,000 to 9,000 feet depending on conditions and final weight of your rocket. Although I haven't flown it yet on a 54mm motor my Tethys sims to almost 8300' on the 54mm CTI 4 grain motor. Not bad!!!
The 1/4 scale Patriot is pretty much the same rocket as the Tethys and should be great for both Level 1 and Level 2 flights. Make sure you sand the piston for free movement, put vent holes and clean the debris and soot after each flight and your deployment system should work fine. Another option for chute deployment is to build a baffle system and all the worries about the piston not working properly will go away and you still won't have to use dawg barf.
If you aren't going to use the payload bay for anything special and don't use the piston deployment system then I would recommend using the payload bay to incorporate a zipperless design and that baby should be good for many flights.
Junk the launch lugs included in the kit and get some rail buttons from www.railbuttons.com and use a rail launcher. You don't want to launch a 4 to 6 pound rocket off a 3/8" rod, it will whip too much and create problems that you don't want any part of.
Good Luck and Have Fun!!!
Andrew

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Andrew Grippo wrote:
<snip lots of good points that I thank you for>

Agreed, I haven't quite decided what recovery system I'll do yet.

??? What do you mean by this???

Agreed, I've been looking at the rail button as an alternative.
Thanks again for all the feedback.
David Erbas-White
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See www.info-central.org then click on the Construction link, then click on Anti-Zipper Design.
If you happen to like viewing videos of rocket launches then pay close attention to the stress put on the chute during deployment. You will notice that rockets that utilize an Anti-Zipper design have chutes that open more readily and are under less stress when they do open and this design also reduces the stress put on the ends of the body tubes by the shock cord.
Andrew
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My version of the answers, embedded below...

the only rocket I flew FIRST as a certification flight was my Level 3 rocket.

Find a vendor that does not charge hazmat on 29mm motors. There isn't a limit to the number of low or mid-power motors you can buy, even if they "add up" to the equivalent of a high-power motor. (I think that a G motor with 80 NS average thrust or higher might be considered high power, but I can't get to the NAR site right now to check).

That's silly. There's plenty of play in the tube, and if it does get enough crud in it, just run a bristle brush or something up in there to knock the crud off. I've never had to do that, and I have rockets with 30+ high power flights with varying sized motors.

No.
Correct, if you are smart enough to make sure your witness are watching, you've pretty much got Level 1 nailed.

I know you've thought about this a lot, but you seem to have changed your goal from what you said in your original thread. If you want a rocket that you can fly mostly on mid-power, but also get your certification, that rocket is pretty heavy. You're going to want to launch it on H or above pretty much. Something smaller/lighter like a Black Brant VB or mini-BBX flies much better on F and G motors. I got the 38mm mount in my BBVB, and I just put two T-nuts in the aft centering ring. I use brass strips with a screw for motor retention, and I use the 38-29 adapter to fly with F40, G64, H128, and H180.

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David wrote:

I'm not 'finally decided' yet, but in looking at it, I ran some sims and there are several F/G combos that would appear to work with this one. I'll still keep others in mind, and all of the comments are very helpful.
David Erbas-White
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NO. Neither NAR nor TRA rules require a new rocket.

ANy motor that exceeds one of the NFPA 1122 model rocket motor limits. That usually meand >80N average thrust (F101, G104, G125) or >62.5g propellant (G33, G75)

Real. I've got several blistered MMTs. An adapter or spacer will prevent this.

Nope. Just constructed in a manner that will pass the inspection.

You can show up cold and certify. But I'd much prefer someone who contacts me in advance so I can give advice and guidance than someone who shows up with a poor choice of rocket and motor and then is surprised that I'm reluctant to have them certify using what turns out to be a poor choice of models and/or motors.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
We must have faith in our democratic system and our Constitution, and in our ability to protect at the same time both the freedom and the security of all Americans.
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