latest thoughts

I almost hate to say this but I am beginning to believe that perhaps we should allow S724 to die a quiet death...... and then focus on the lawsuit......Although I think Mark B. makes some good points I think he is being overly optimistic.....If we let S.724 die now.....then it goes off the congressional radar which right now may be a good thing.....in the short term..... Perhaps 2-4-6 years from now with the Bush administration history along with John Ashcroft and his DOJ/BATFE fanatics, the political climate might be such that we will get a much better deal that whatever is possible now..... Plus that will allow us to educate the congress people over that time frame too ? the other side of the coin is that the political/terrorism climate may get even worse than it is now.....

See here's the way I look at all this......The NAR/TRA didn't want to initially go the legislative route because they knew that we would be more or less where we are now....evidently ARSA didn't understand the real politik involved....SO now the NAR/TRA is trying to salvage an aborted ARSA legislative fiasco......

Even if we rely on the lawsuit, any resolution on that is light years away....even if we win round 1, you know the Ashcroft DOJ will appeal, and if they lose there? Well I can see them taking it all the way to the supreme court... And if it appears they are gonna lose in court, I can see them getting their buds, Sensenbrenner, Kohl,,et al, to come up with appropriate legislation to do what they can't get down .....ever way, we are years away from a final resolution court wise....

and may I suggest while all of this is going on that the NAR/TRA consider opening several new "fronts" in the war:

  1. via the NFPA process raise the 62.5g to 125g to get it aligned with the FAA
125 g value that has been there for 50 years....

Here within NFPA I believe BATFE would fight any proposal to raise the limit.....but it would open up to intense discussion within this important group which I think is needed..the NFPA might also perform some tests on APCP to determine if its a good idea or not.....

  1. go back through the CSPC process and also get that 62.5 g raised also to 125 g

Now this would make low H power engines, model rocket engines which I think would be a good thing....but the NAR/TRA might not want low H power model rocket engines in the hands of minors.....? And how would this effect the L1 cert process? Right now you must be 18 to be a L1 and to be a L1 you must launch at least a H...if an H became a model rocket engine and was legally available to minors ( 125 ... do we want low H power motors in the hands of minors? Maybe not a 10 yr old but what about a

17 yr old? Now of course the CSPC would have to conduct tests, hold hearings, do an NPRM,etc.....

  1. go back through the FAA process and get that 113g raised to a unified 125 g

  2. go back thru the USPS process and get permission for motors up to 125g to be shipped Parcel Post

The above is what I call a "full court press"......the best defense is a good offense.....

You might ask why is this important, well here's what the BATFE says:

"To ensure consistency, ATF coordinates its use of terms in our regulations with other Federal agencies and industry associations. The term "toy propellant device", formerly contained in Department of Transportation regulation 49 CFR 173.100(u), was used by ATF in determining the exemption under 27 CFR 55.141(a)(7).

The 62.5 grams propellant weight limit is also referenced by the Consumer Product Safety Commission regulation 16 CFR Section

1500.85(a)(8)(u). The National Fire Protection Association Code for Unmanned Rockets (NFPA 1122) also uses 62.5 grams to define model rockets. Therefore, ATF's regulation of rocket motors containing over 62.5 grams of propellant is consistent with all Federal agencies involved as well as those States that rely on the NFPA standards for their regulations."

If we get the CSPC/FAA/NFPA/USPS to raise that 62.5 g to 125 then by its own words to be consistent, the ATF would have to support the use 125g instead....

shockie B)

Reply to
shockwaveriderz
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As I have been saying for over a decade.

They only have one vote and zero on the sport rocket sub-committe which generates the proposals for rubber stamping by the fulll committee.

Good suggestion.

I have been saying this for over a decade.

There is an age limit NOW for And how would

IT WOULD NOT CHANGE AN INTERNAL SILLY CLUB RULE.

Probably not worth the effort.

VERY worth the effort. In fact current USPS regs allow up to 1 lb per individual grain if only they accept the terst reports that show that the material is not an explosive as tested and is a flammable solid if it burns over 2.2mm/s. Anything slower than that would not be regulated at all iof they respected the scientific tests rather than arbitrary DOT/UN regulations.

Many good suggestions all of which have been proposed and refused by NAR before consistently.

Point.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

And what good would that do?? If by some miracle you pulled all this off, you would have only achieved two things:

  1. Raising the limit on motors available to minors from a G to an H.
  2. Raising the LEUP threshold from a G to an H.

We'd still have the ATF forcing adults to abide by the limits set for children.

Reply to
RayDunakin

ray: the idea was a "fallback" position, just in case, the worse that could possibly happen happens: HPR is outlawed completely ( not entirely out of the question at some future point in time) and that should have been mid-H power.... shockie B)

Reply to
shockwaveriderz

along >with John Ashcroft and his DOJ/BATFE fanatics

Most of those at the BATFE have been there 10 years my friend Shockie and probably would still be their on the next change of guard.

I am not defending any party here, but the republicans never seem to clean house after they win the house, white house or otherwise.

the demos on the other hand have always cleaned house when they win.

news:...

allow S724 to die a quiet death...... and then focus

is being overly optimistic.....If we let S.724 die

thing.....in the short term.....

John Ashcroft and his DOJ/BATFE fanatics, the political

possible now..... Plus that will allow us to educate the

the political/terrorism climate may get even worse

initially go the legislative route because they knew that we

real politik involved....SO now the NAR/TRA is

away....even if we win round 1, you know the Ashcroft DOJ will

the supreme court... And if it appears they are gonna

to come up with appropriate legislation to do what

court wise....

opening several new "fronts" in the war:

125 g value that has been there for 50 years....

limit.....but it would open up to intense discussion within

tests on APCP to determine if its a good idea or

would be a good thing....but the NAR/TRA might not want

this effect the L1 cert process?

H...if an H became a model rocket engine and was

hands of minors? Maybe not a 10 yr old but what about a

do an NPRM,etc.....

be shipped Parcel Post

offense.....

with other Federal agencies and industry associations.

the exemption under 27 CFR 55.141(a)(7).

Product Safety Commission regulation 16 CFR Section

Rockets (NFPA 1122) also uses 62.5 grams to define

62.5 grams of propellant

rely on the NFPA standards

words to be consistent, the ATF would have to support

Reply to
AlMax714

problem is can the hobby companies SURVIVE that long.

it might be that when time comes to relegislate their might be no one left to sell us stuff.

Chris Taylor

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should allow S724 to die a quiet death...... and then focus

think he is being overly optimistic.....If we let S.724 die

good thing.....in the short term.....

with John Ashcroft and his DOJ/BATFE fanatics, the political

possible now..... Plus that will allow us to educate the

that the political/terrorism climate may get even worse

initially go the legislative route because they knew that we

the real politik involved....SO now the NAR/TRA is

away....even if we win round 1, you know the Ashcroft DOJ will

to the supreme court... And if it appears they are gonna

al, to come up with appropriate legislation to do what

resolution court wise....

opening several new "fronts" in the war:

FAA 125 g value that has been there for 50 years....

limit.....but it would open up to intense discussion within

some tests on APCP to determine if its a good idea or

think would be a good thing....but the NAR/TRA might not want

would this effect the L1 cert process?

least a H...if an H became a model rocket engine and was

hands of minors? Maybe not a 10 yr old but what about a

hearings, do an NPRM,etc.....

to be shipped Parcel Post

good offense.....

regulations with other Federal agencies and industry associations.

determining the exemption under 27 CFR 55.141(a)(7).

Product Safety Commission regulation 16 CFR Section

Unmanned Rockets (NFPA 1122) also uses 62.5 grams to define

over 62.5 grams of propellant

that rely on the NFPA standards

own words to be consistent, the ATF would have to support

Reply to
Chris Taylor Jr

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