Breguet Atlantic colours

"Alan Dicey" schreef in bericht news:flHfb.3629$ snipped-for-privacy@wards.force.net...

Coincidently I just got in possession of this kit too. No warped wing in my kit but it is generally not that difficult to get straight wings from warped parts. I'd suggest to create some kind of construction first, to temporarily fix the wings in straight position inmediately after gluing the parts. Think of a piece of glass and clothpegs for example. If necessary with additional jigs. Works for me all the time so far. Hot water may do the trick as well.

As for the colours I can't help you much yet. Most of the time I mix the colours myself since I don't trust colour systems. I didn't came to mixing for the Atlantic yet though. After having a quick glance at my comprehensive collection of Humbrol colours however I think # 27 mixed with white *may* be a reasonable match. It depends on how precise you want to have it. I usually spent a lot of time trying to mix the right colour with the aid of as many colour photographs I can find. Success not guaranteed, but still a lot of fun. hth.

Remember that maratime aricraft spend a lot of their time exposed to the elements, so a great deal of weathering occurrs. Unless you want a factory-fresh example, feel free to disregard the exact colour specification in favour of making it look "right"

Untaping the bag has let the sprues relax a bit, and the only bad deformation is now at the end of one of the lower wing sections, which has curled up. As the lower sections are quite thin and flat at their outer ends, it may well straighten out on construction.

After looking at all the photos I can find, I'm going to agree with Pierre François below, and go for Extra Dark Sea Grey (Humbrol 123, Xtracolor X5). I could argue that the scheme was inherited from the Fairey Gannets that preceded the Atlantic, but in truth it just looks right. Once scale colour effects and weathering are taken into account, exact matching is pretty much superfluous anyway. But it does give a place to start from . . .

"Jeff C" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

I think you're right Jeff. As a side note would like to remark that these modern aircraft with modern weather resistant lacquers are kept in quite mint condition in peacetime. (always found the nifty shower installation very intriguing, although I don't know how old it is) I also noticed that they are repainted more often than I redecorate the house. But indeed the paints on maritime aircraft seem to deteriorate very quickly. Especially the darker sea grey variants seem to fade fast.

Good choice. I'm not familiar with Xtracolor but I'm very familiar with H123 since I almost buy the stuff per tray lately ;-) Don't forget to lighten it by adding white as plain H123 is way too dark. I have done some quick mixing and it appeared to me that to approach the French colour Gris Bleu Clair Brillant, more than an equal amount of white should be added. I also found a comparison table in one of my references that states; KN155, FS36270, Xtracolor X3, X133, Humbrol H126, H165. But I personally would prefer to rely on my own observation instead. In that way you would address all system inconsistencies, others' human interpretations, scale effect and other possible fuzzy aspects, in one go.

I have found the Scale Aircraft Modelling that features the Atlantic in Aircraft in Detail. It is Vol 24 No12, February 2003, and hadn't gone into the stacks yet. (still available as a back issue too!)

The informative article, by Glenn Sands, says nothing definite about the colours used. It does say that all final assembly took place in the Breguet facility at Toulouse, so it is quite possible that all the aircraft (French, German, Dutch, Italian) were painted alike (and in a french accent :) ) on initial delivery.

The colour diagrams by David Howley include a legend indicating that the grey is Gris Bleu Clair. A positive reference at last!

My ancient Humbrol Authentic Colour chart lists this as HF.4. A pity, then, that Humbrol Authenic colours are no more.

Urban Fredriksson

says that the nearest Humbrol equivalent is 126 US Medium Grey FS36270.

However, on his French colour sheet on the IPMS Stockholm site,

he gives the FS reference FS:25189 for Gris Bleu Clair, which is bluer. EDSG X5 is far too dark; Dark Sea Grey X4, H123 is closer, but still too dark; the discontinued Humbrol 124 Petrol Blue is very close, at least on the Humbrol paint chip chart I have.

Also in the SAM is an article by Tony O'Toole describing a buildup of a test shot of the Atlantic. He used a Model Art decal sheet, which gave FS15237 as the shade of grey. Other useful details are that the undercarriage is metallic silver and the bomb bay and wheel well interiors are Chamois, which he approximated with RAF Light Stone, Xtracolor X029, but which also seems to be available directly as Xtracolor X379.

From all this I begin to think that FS35237, US Dark Blue/Grey (X126, H145) seems a very likely match.

Of the cross-references you quoted, I matched names on colour charts to find that: FS36270 = X133 = H126, US Neutral Grey X3 = H165 = RAF Medium Sea Grey

Putting all the Xtracolor tins side-by-side, the colour values of X3(Medium Sea Grey), X126(FS15237, Dark Blue/Grey) and X133(FS16270 Neutral Grey) seem nearly equal, with X126 just noticably bluer. I _think_ that Gris Bleu Clair is bluer than Medium Sea Grey, and now intend to use it as the basis for my Atlantic.

One thing is for sure, the estimation of shades of grey from magazine copies or downloaded jpeg copies of colour photographs is highly suspect, not least because colour corrections will have been made during both the photographic printing and magazine printing stages. An original colour transparency might give a better representation, but even then it would be preferable to compare two colour samples on the same photograph, for instance a Nimrod and an Atlantic next to each other. I've never seen an Atlantic in the flesh, so have to rely on secondary references.

Thats why I was looking for a primary reference in the form of an official designation. The identification of Gris Bleu Clair meets that requirement for me, and seems most likely to be the colour applied by a French manufacturer.

Well, I seem to have answered my own question. I hope some of the lurking mass of modellers out there find the above useful: but as you say, there is nothing to beat first-hand observation (where possible), or researching your own references.

Fantastic! A host of new options to choose from. I can't speak for the lurking mass, but at least I find the information below very useful. Thanks a lot. And I'm sure any other modeller interested in building the Atlantic model will too. Either those who prefer to have an instant answer as well as those who choose the hard way to find it out themselves. There is one little thing I can add to this wealth of information. After your smart suggestion about two colour samples on the same photograph I managed to dig up this picture:

without a Nimrod, but it does illustrate a colour difference very well. The Orions in the foreground (except the Canadian Aurora of course) are painted in a colour which is commonly referred to as extra dark sea grey. As can be seen it is much darker than the gris bleu clair of the Atlantics on the background. I must note that at the time this picture was taken, the Orions had fresh paint and the Atlantics were at the end of their surface life. So perhaps their grey may have faded.

"Alan Dicey" schreef >

Thanks very much for that image. It shows for certain that the Atlantic is _not_ painted Extra Dark Sea Grey as I first guessed.

Would those be Dutch P-3's, in the process of replacing the Atlantics behind them? It almost looks if the Orions are painted in RAF WWII vintage Fleet Air Arm colours, Extra Dark Sea Grey over Sky! And is that a Neptune tailfin in the background?

The ex-Dutch Orions were apparantly overhauled by Aerospatiale and then delivered to the Aeronavale, so it wasn't the end of their service life, just a change of scene :)

I built the Hasegawa P-3 some time ago, finishing it as an Australian example using Scalemaster decals. I seem to remember they had a Dutch example on the sheet too. The Atlantic will be joining it, when finished.

Alan Dicey waxed lyrical news:wG2hb.5570$ snipped-for-privacy@wards.force.net:

And a very early CP-140 Aurora far left. . . nice photo!

I've now extracted the Scalemaster decal sheet and Hasegawa instructions from the reference file (never throw away references!). For what its worth, the Scalemaster sheet gives the colours for P-3C aircraft 300 (which is in your photo) as upper FS36118 (which is Gunship Grey, X130, H124), lower FS36622 (Camouflage Grey X140, H28). Gunship Grey is closest to the RAF colour Dark Sea Grey (H164, X004) and not Extra Dark Sea Grey (H123, X005) which is, of course, darker :).

The Norwegian P-3B on the same sheet is given as FS36118 overall and the Australian P-3B as Light Gull Grey (FS36440, H129, X137) with white uppers.

For completeness, the Hasegawa sheet gives the colours for a Canadian Aurora as upper FS35237 (H145, X126, and the colour I will paint the Atlantic), lower FS36375 (Light Compass Grey, H127, X136). This Canadian scheme is not the one worn by the Aurora in your photograph, however.

Superficially it seems obvious that Lockheed would deliver the aircraft painted in the US Fed Stan colours closest to those specified by the European customer (as happened with US and Canadian built aircraft during WWII). However, there is a Fed Stan colour close to Extra Dark Sea Grey (FS36081, Dark Gunship Grey, H32, X129), and it could be that Scalemaster have mis-identified the colour: we don't know where they got their information from. Can you say where you got the identification of Extra Dark Sea Grey from? More information is always better :)

Thanks !

Hi all Angelo Falconi in "Manuale delle colorazioni nel plastimodellismo aereo" , a good book from my point of view ,states for the italian Atlantics(all the atlantics seems to wear the same colors to me ): "Grigio mare medio opaco numero 30" = matt medium sea grey number 30 aprrox 26329 Monografie areonautiche italiane n22 om the atlantic says: uppers surfaces: "grigio mare medio numero 3" = medium sea grey number

3, the color replaced by no30 and gives humbrol color HN-1 old autentic colors= FS 36400 I also have a small pic of an new atlantic and an old tracker flying in formation if you want it send me an email I will be happy to send it to you when I did an italian tracker I used Humbrol 129 F.S. 16440 and it looked quite good

just can't wait for some italian decals for this Atlantic bye Paolo

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Thanks very much for the additional info Paolo. Some more to contemplate. I wonder what would happen if all these paints would be mixed together. What I don't understand is why Revell didn't include one more nation to the decal sheet. Italy seems like a big enough market to me. I hope you will get the decals. It really is a nice kit.

"Paolo" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

"Drewe Manton" schreef in bericht news:Xns940F53826EDFCdrewebtinternetcom@130.133.1.4...

The photo must be dating from between 1982 (arrival of the Orions) and 1984 (when the Atlantics were sold) I believe the Neptune in the background was a single leftover and just standing there after the type was struck off charge in 1982. b.t.w. one of them went to the Cosford RAF museum. The Aurora must have been one of the occasional visitors. It is a quite unusual 'colourful' sight for there ;-)

Well, with the growing of this thread it gradually becomes clear how to value colour systems, listings and conversion charts doesn't it? The only reference I have apart from leaflets from MM and Humbrol which next to colour names also lists colour numbers is a book called Camouflage en Kentekens. The book is about Dutch military aviation and is a major source of information for modellers interested in Dutch military aviation. Although this book isn't flawless either in my opinion. In the system interesting for modellers it states for extra dark sea grey: FS16099, 26099, X5, X376, H123. H123 seems to me a reasonable good match for the Dutch Orions in current livery. But for the livery dating from delivery which was I believe a little different, the discontinued colour H124 petrol blue seems according to the paper colour chip in my old Humbrol leaflet not such a bad match after all. Perhaps a mixture of those two would be near perfect. After having built quite a number of models of aircraft that had a EDSG camo in one way or another, I noticed that all these EDSG's can differ considerably from eachother. If you would ask me, a personal discription of EDSG would be *a* dark blue grey with sometimes a faint greenish hue in which all these elements can vary independently. Gris bleu clair is to me an exciting and exotic variant of sea grey. I know, I should get out more....

p.s. Mr. Nightbus was so kind to post a couple of excellent German Navy Atlantic pics in alt.binaries.pictures.aviation.

"Alan Dicey" schreef in bericht news:JZ8hb.5603$ snipped-for-privacy@wards.force.net...

I think you are right about all above.

What a coincidence! I have enjoyed the very nice Hasegawa kit too a while ago. And perhaps extend the collection with more of these maritime patrol aircraft. A Shackleton would be nice too.

I have a Contrail Shackleton in the stash: my father-in-law flew in one early in his RAF career (which was largely spent on PR Canberra's, along with Vulcans and Phantoms). What I _really_ want to see is an injection moulded 1/72 Nimrod . . . I'd buy three at least; one of which would go with the Atlantic and Orion (most of my friends work has been on Nimrod avionics, and she is working on the MRA4 project right now).

The ex-Frog Shackleton (an MR3) is available in its Novo guise from Hannants (

), but marked D for discontinued, so get your order in quick!

The Hannants site also reveals the awe-inspiring existance of a 1/48 Vacform Shackleton, from Sanger. I'd need an extension to the house . . .

Bassie Adriaensen wrote: > In the system interesting for modellers it states for > extra dark sea grey: FS16099, 26099, X5, X376, H123.

A digression into FedStan numbering. The first digit indicates lustre;

1=gloss, 2=satin, 3=matt. Second digit is a colour series: for instance 5 = blues, 6 = greys. The last three digits are a simple index number; they run from dark to light (low numbers = darker) but are otherwise not derived from the colour value. Strictly speaking FS16118 could be a different color from FS36118, although in practice this has not occurred (yet)!

Now then:

FS16099 is very close to FS36081, the designation of EDSG in the FedStan table.

26099 is a satin finish of the same colour.

X5 is Xtracolor RAF Extra Dark Sea Grey, BS640 (reading it off the tin).

X376 is in Xtracolors range of French colours, and Hannants give it as OTAN Gris Bleu Fonce (NATO Dark Blue Grey) !

Now we come to an inconsistency in Humbrols naming: all the references I have list the name of H123 as Dark Sea Grey, but the colour chart I have (one with actual samples of the paint) clearly shows that this is EDSG, and also gives it the BS640 designation, which again is EDSG.

Whew!

So, your author gives the grey colour for Dutch Orions as EDSG.

Indeed he was, and one has a P-3 tail and MAD boom in the foreground: the P-3 is in two-tone grey, so I'm guessing it is a Dutch example and the darker grey is a Dark Sea Grey.

I'm not sure why Revell chose not to include Italian markings in the kit; there are detail differences to the Italian airframes, the most noticable of which is a large aerial on the fuselage spine, similar in shape to the fin top of the Atlantic deux, but these could easily be adressed with small additions to the sprues. So, be prepared to do some small changes to go with those Marinavia markings :)