OOB and the new models in contests

The rule of thumb has been if it's in the box and on the direction sheet then it is OOB.

If not included, IIRC all you could do was change decals or add non-essential items like figures (of course, for aircraft the rules are so broadly interpreted it's no longer much different than correcting and upgrading, but I digress...)

The bottom line however -- as many IPMS modelers found out -- is that no matter what the kit consists of and how many items are added, you STILL have to get it together right and get the paint and markings on it without any error.

Cookie Sewell

All else aside, traditionally it has been allowed to add antennae, rigging for ships and biplanes and aftermarket decals. Personally if it's in the box like Dragon i see no problem, Tamiya's just trying to hose you for more money with things like the LeClerc or Swordfish and if it isn't in the box, tough when it comes to OOB.

Ahh if that were only true LOL

Many times I've watched judges flock to a model and "ooh and ahh" over the initial look. It's only when some judges hold out for skill or if there is a split over 2 or more models in the "ooh and ahh" factor do they get down to assembly, finish and accuracy.

I'm one of the judges that looks at assembly first, then finish, then accuracy -- and it's almost always the same.

The best discussion over a diorama was about a wirbelwind with massive injector pin marking all over the place, but it finally won because the naked woman in the washtub inside an adjacent building more than made up for the flaws in the vehicle. She was soooooooooooooo lifelike! The decision was not unanimous, lol.

TMB

I agree totally, but I see a big gray area with models like the Leclerc where the instructions can be interpreted as "the after market kit is in effect part of the basic model" because the assembly instructions include

I don't see it as grey at all, not inthe box so that particular Tamiya attempt at market rape can't be built correctly and entered OOB. There are plenty of other fine kits that can be entered OOB.

"Michael Brizendine User" wrote

It's not gray at all - it didn't come in the box with the model so you can't use it. If Tamiya had not included the turret because they were selling it as an separate item, then you couldn't claim a model with a turret was OOB. Maybe you could do a "protest model" and just enter the painted and folded Tamiya PE on a base - and demand it be judged OOB.

This is not a new issue. Fine Molds' Japanese armor usually references their alternate PE items in the main kit directions, but they could not be used as OOB because they did not come Out Of the Box the kit came in. The inclusion of directions in the rules is a way for the modeler to prove what's on the model came in the box (more or less - the rules are more like vague suggestions in IPMS). It is not to provide an allowance for advertised aftermarket items to be included.

Amazingly, model manufacturers do not run their operations based on arcane IPMS/USA competition rules - the bastards.

KL

Like I said, I totally agree, but....

This is a slightly different spin because the additional components are not merely referenced or suggested, they imply being required to build a complete model. That is why I say 'gray area', because the of instructions imply that they are BASIC to the kit -- not modifications or additional detail for items already present in the kit. (Not shouting, just can't seem to get the italics to work in this Entourage news reader) In the tiny world of OOB, I see this as a hiccup in progress :)

What were they thinking...LOL!

TMB

I usually have a model or two I ca enter OOB, mainly because I sometimes just slam a plane ot tank after one the major ship or armor superdetailing projects. It just isn't that difficult.

"Michael Brizendine User" wrote

No. If there's a "but", you don't totally agree.

It's only different in that you "have" to get the aftermarket to make to the level you desire. Like I said, if the kit didn't come with a turret or only had half the roadwheels, you couldn't add those items and still call it out of the box. That's all there is to it.

KL

I can understand and comment about murder and terrorism without totally agreeing with them too. In other words, I can have an opinion agreeing with something (murder is wrong), yet still understand that a terrorist will see it as not being wrong (and in a gray area in regards to my beliefs and his beliefs).

Thank you, but please refrain from deciding for me what I think.

We'll agree to disagree about MY opinion.

Exasperatedly I state again that the parts are needed to build a complete kit, not a 'desired' one. You simply cannot build the kit as advertised or accurately without them.

Again, we'll agree to disagree about about whether additional 'missing' parts constitute a desired level of finish or an expected level of completeness.

Since we have deviated into debating validities of personal opinions instead of the original topic, I will no longer respond to this threads' off-shoot.

TMB

"Michael Brizendine User" wrote

Yes, everyone realizes that. And as Ron and I have said, you can't enter that kit in an IPMS/USA contest as OOB, just as if the turret or roadwheels were not included. There is no gray area. There are no "buts". There's no valid argument. No one really cares that the kit is incomplete in the box - all kits are to one degree or another. Sorry, but no matter how much you like that kit you can't enter it OOB with the PE added. If you want to make a kit solely for the purpose of being competitive as an OOB entry in an IPMS/USA contest (kind of an odd reason to build a kit) you can either leave the parts off or choose another kit.

KL

Ok, I envision there will be a time where someone enters a model that way (citing the instructions as validity -- irregardless of what is correct), you seem to think there will never be a debate ever...valid or not. You seem to be insisting that I want the extra kits allowed, which clearly I have stated I do not. A simple line in the rules section detailing that only the contents of the box are allowable irregardless of instructions would simply end the question in and future. As the rules stand now, nothing addresses this specific, I repeat specific, issue because it has not existed until recently. I think it is a loop hole that will be tested in the future

- either by misunderstanding or by design.

I know you will not agree that this will ever happen.

As I stated earlier (because I knew someone would have go there), I have already decided to scratch build the missing pieces, which invalidates it for OOB. Also as I have stated, I totally agree that what's in the box is all that counts.

I can also envision anothers' point of view...

The scenario I envision would be:

A modeler buys a kit and spends 2 months following the instructions exactly (exactly). He buys exactly what the instructions tell him is needed to complete the model (scissors, clear part glue, snippers, parts, paints, masking tape, and putty - they're all lumped together); buys nothing optional. He bypasses everything else aftermarket because it's not in the instructions. He sands, assembles, paints, finishes until it looks sharp, and enters it in OOB where it is clearly a cut above the closest entry to everyone who observed.

He loses.

Afterwards he asks a judge what was wrong/what can he do to improve his skills with his modelling and he is told "you added an aftermarket kit". He is now quite honestly confused because he followed the instructions and did what he thought was right. He was an average modeler who wasn't trying to get around the rules, but he didn't read this newsgroup - only the official rules...

Of course, this could never ever happen in a million zillion gazillion years...

You're both right and wrong. there will be someone who thinks it's as legal to get the parts as it is to get the paints the kit calls for. a simple rule of only whats in the box will limit it to snaptite and novelty kits. Jeez, can't we just all get along and build models? Cas

"Michael Brizendine User" wrote

No, there will be people who disagree, and want a debate with the judges at contests, but they won't get one because the rules forbid adding parts from another kit. Now people can try to "debate" within the club (i.e. make suggestions to the High And Mighty Ones who make the rules) but the rules committee isn't directly answerable to the membership.

Well, it says you can't add things from another kit. The Tamiya Leclerc is kit 35279 the detail set is 35280 - another kit.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.

KL

Well, someone else's confusion and disqualification up my odds for a win. I guess they'll know better next time.

Dripping aside, I agree (even if I run the risk of having it explained to me how I don't).

I thought it might be a good idea to get a discussion going on how to avoid a scenario like I envisioned and it went south fast.

TMB

Funny thing is I don't build OOB to enter them, I just do it for a quick break from super detailing. The fact some are nice enough to enter after the fact is another thing entirely. With resin ships it is possible to have a superdetailed OOB entry but that's the nature of the kits and media. Of course after a 1/350 heavy cruiser or BB like that I tend to slam an OOB airplane and/or paint a 54mm figure just to have fun.

ISTM that was exactly his intent...

Hey Al,

Yes, I was letting him know I was one of those that got it.