Zebra Stripes - Tangency - Loft

So, there I was sittin' there and minding my own business and then "Swx is unable to obtain required memory..."

That is not the point of this post. We'll leave that one to Good Ol' Bob Zee.

I am drawing a fairly complicated little part that has a number of radii and an intricate loft. This part needs to be completely smooth - perfect tangencies, etc. How do I go about making sure that it is correct? Is the 'zebra stripes display' the way to go? If so, how do I read and understand what I am seeing?

Thanks, group. You guys rock.

Arlan ...driving 90 miles to work - one way...

Reply to
Arlan.Murphy
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Well, after reading through the help topics. I have mostly answered my questions. This part is not making the zerbra stripes very friendly, though... :~(

Reply to
Arlan.Murphy

Zebra stripes are for checking C2 (curvature) continuity. They won't help much for C1 (tangency).

Look into the "Deviation Analysis" tool to check face angles at edges.

Sometimes you can ask for tangency or normal to plane > So, there I was sittin' there and minding my own business and then "Swx

Reply to
That70sTick

The fastest and surest way to check an entire model for c1 tangency is to turn the display to HLR wireframe, and change the tangent edge display to 'as phantom'. (under system options-display/selection). All tangent edges are dashed, all non-tangent edges are solid lines. In my opinion (I think that's implied, but I have to add that since aquiring my own Cliff) I find zebra stripes to require way too much rotation and zooming to catch the edges that are just a little off - using HLR nails the non-tangent edges right away in a non-ambiguous way.

The next step was mentioned by the Tick - if you have a hard line indicating non-tengency, check to see if the non-tangency is big enough to matter by using deviation analysis. If its a fraction of a degree, it probably won't matter and will get polished out when making the tool. Most of the solidworks surfacing tools (loft, fill, etc) frequently are a little off - the SolidWorks guys have told me they think anything within a degree is really good. Be especially careful of certain settings.

- 'Optimise surface' on a tangent surface fill will give you surfaces that are sometimes OK, and other times are 10-20 degrees off tangnet (while turning it off gives really nice connections within a fraction fo a degree).

- I find it iroic that if you use 'curvature continuous' as a start or end tangency on a loft you can end up with a deviation analysis that can be 2-10 degrees off tangent!

- Also be careful of edges between sections on a variable radius fillet

- the different fillet sections might not be tangent to each other and might require some repair with surface fills

Ed

Reply to
ed1701

Reply to
That70sTick

Banquer-hood? Dare I dream? Alas, I must humbly admit that it is beyond me to even attempt to compare to him, and I regret it if anyone read my post as an attempt to latch on to his stardom. I am just a man - he is the legend, the institution. Ed

Reply to
ed1701

Ed

When you get a spare month or so please write a book on surfacing with SolidWorks.

I'd like to put in an advanced order for a copy now.

John Layne

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Reply to
John Layne

Hey put me on the order list too

Ben

Reply to
Ben Eadie

so are the new 07 C2 really C2 then or is this another case of within a few degrees being called good enough by SW?

Reply to
neil

I haven't touched them for a while in 07 so I don't know if there has been improvement. But... well, hell, I don't know what I can say. By the time I do the next SWx Word it will all be out in the open and I WILL mention whatever the truth is (even though, oddly, it seems to bother some folks) because stuff like this is important to know. I feel I CAN say that there a lot of people a lot smarter than me at SWx who are seriosuly trying their asses off. But I get the impression that it is a seriously tough problem and at some point they have to accept what they can get so they can give us SOMETHING. But I honestly don't know if they beat it over the last few months or if the new stuff in '07 will be more of the same. Let's hope, huh?

-Ed

Reply to
ed1701

Thanks, guys. That's nice to hear here's the problem with trying to write a book -just an actual example from work today.

Backstory- We started the week working on some parts that originated at an outside ID firm in the middle of last year. We tweaked the design, engineered it (adding ribs, mounting locations and whatnot) and made prototypes. Last week we get last minute direction to radically change the ID, and we had a week to do it. I start the week interpreting the ID sketches and come up with a new shape trying to reuse as many of the existing features as possible to keep down the rebuild errors, especially since the previous owners of the data used the 'master model' approach.

So, point 1 for the book from this sample - try to keep as many face and edge ID's the same even if there are radical changes to the entire shape. How do you do that without going into excessive, boring detail on how SWx thinks, and how do you produce samples that can take the student through the whole face/edge ID issue (in other words, create samples that are bad with lots of lost ID's, then taking them through the same sample with good Id's?) And when you mention this real issue, how do you avoid the accusation of 'bashing SWx', even though it is true and must be dealt with in every model, not just surface models.

Today: I pass along the new, shelled, ID model, and the engineers start doing their magic. They have a nice, stable model, and change one dimension to add some extra clearance because they want extra tolerance around a mating part. The model 'blows up'

Point 2 for the book - mutual surface trims are notorious for forgetting which part to keep and which part to delete - even a simple dim change can cause the trim to flip manifold sections. All the errors in the tree come from a single surface trim forgetting what was supposed to be kept - a part of a surface manifold (insert definition of manifold here - that will take a while) that was supposed to be kept was deleted, and a part of the manifold that was supposed to be deleted was kept. The engineers were perplexed (they don't deal with surfaces much, and are a little leery of them for just this sort of reason), but I have multiple hundreds of hours logged dealing with just this issue so its no big deal to me. So do you put this in the book because it is common and expected, or do you leave it out because someone will think you are 'bashing the software'. And do you stop to make a larger point about the software - a valid one at that - that it is always risky to use graphical, on-screen selection (the only option with a trim - 'as far as I know'-, but one that is just as risky with 'contour select' when you can instead use the much stabler 'convert edges' and use a new sketch to create a feature) knowing that you again risk claims of 'bashing the software' or someone else, even though you can back up the claim with clear samples of the risk? And do you stop to back up the claim with samples, or do you just press on? What important points that can save the reader dozens or hundreds of hours do you leave out?

Point 3 for the book - the engineers were trying to modify the selection set for the surface trim, but couldn't. The manifolds were on the screen, they could see them, but they couldn't pick the sections to keep what they wanted. I had to stop them and educate them that you can only chose parts of a surface trim that are 'shown'. I instructed them that they had to roll back before the surface trim, show all the effected bodies/manifolds, then they could roll forward, edit the feature, and correct it. I do this in a few seconds because I've done it so many times, but it took them minutes because they weren't expecting it (and I don't think anyone should expect that) So how do you handle that situation? Do you set up a sample model with an error just so they can learn about this stupid idiosyncrasy? Do you call it what it is - a stupid idiosyncrasy - knowing that folks will then lambaste you for bashing the software, etc, etc, etc (sorry to sound like a broken record on that one, but it has come up) And then, once there is a published book, SWx fixes this oversight and your book is out of date and you have to spend the next month updating it?

And that is just one part from one project - we haven't talked about anything more complicated than a basic surface trim. Would I love to share what I know to prevent someone else form having to waste their time on the same learning curve? You bet - that's why I spend several hundred hours (seriously, I track it) each year working on SWx world. It seems like such a waste for me to have noodled this stuff out and to keep it to myself. Would I like someone else to go write a book so I can learn from them? Absolutely - add me to that list you guys started. I can think of at least one guy - that humbles me - that I want to write that book. Do I want to deal with the political and logistical quagmire of trying to do it myself - no way. I'll just take a (very) little crap every year after SWx world, thank you (along with a lot of generous compliments, and thanks a ton for those - it justifies the hundreds of hours). What gets me about that last one is that I (so far) never get criticized on veracity of content, just tone - I must come across as a dick or something. I sincerely look for issues about content, because I really don't want to say something that isn't true. However, tone I can't figure out a way to help -I struggle with that more than anything, and, if at the end of the day I come across as a dick to my core (and I really try not to be), I guess I'm a dick. I won't revel in it or exaggerate it, but if trying to say what's true and verifiable and necessary I earn a couple of Cliffs, then I guess I have to accept that.

So thanks about the pre-orders on the book, but someone else will have to cash in on it. I hope they do the subject the justice it warrants. Barring that, I dig the WIKI idea that was brought up here a couple of months ago. I would be hapy to contribute to that (though, again, I will run into serious issues when something is presented that just ain't true. I have a flaw about being pathalogically honest, and that seems to cause problems in some circles.)

-Ed

Reply to
ed1701

Ed - your too hard on yourself. As for 'software bashing' - well its not even in the same ethical league as seal clubbing. :-) so carry on 'software bashing' , because it is only when experts like yourself point out the shortcomings that software is improved.

On an aside - its over ten years since SW came out and totally revolutuionized 3d for the great unwashed mass. Ay a hunch is 10years the lifecycle of a product before it gets too unwealdy and cannot adapt to new ways, - so what is the latest software that we should keep an eye on as the replacement for the next 10 years? Who are the new kids on the block with the radical way of doing things? Or should we raise some venture capital and write our own, as we have over 10 years experiance of how to and how not to do it ;-)

Jonathan

Reply to
jjs

Oh my goodness! That is awesome. That works. It really does. I do have another little issue, though. How do I do the deviation analysis? Where do I find this comman/utility/option? I have only used surfacing for 'playing'. This is my first attempt on a part that will be used to create tooling. I am more than a little nervous about it.

Thanks! Arlan

Reply to
Arlan.Murphy

I was expecting to see that C2 would be just another condition option in the existing features so to see boundary surface was somewhat surprising... My impression from the little I have seen is that it has been impossible to integrate C2 into the existing program and they have needed to reinvent loft especially for it... but I could be wrong about that. Also I am somewhat disappointed by what seems to be actually rather limited surface pull functionality which also seems to indicate underlying difficulties. Maybe though it is just a half finished tool to be spread over several releases as per usual... Improvements in splines and continuity have been a long time coming. I too really hope they end up being genuinely useful tools.

Reply to
neil

Wait about 18 months. There is something new coming that has some promise. On the plus side, its a new kernel - that is critical (I think the BREP is about played out and its time to move onto the next technology). On the down side, I wish the company had more mechanical designers consulting on the development. Oh well, at least there's a chance, eh? Ed

Reply to
ed1701

Sounds interesting ! - hurray - and only 18 months to go.

Doesn't sound good - who are they writing the programme for? I just hope there is lots fo drag and drop from lots of different places and and lots of simple Wizards - none of this $ string business to get a simple Design able to work.

Jonathan

Reply to
jjs

You have to be in a part, not in an assembly. Tools/Deviation Analysis. Pick the edge or edges you want to check. Hit Calculate. React with suitable awe or outrage, depending on how well SolidWorks matched your intent.

Jerry Steiger Tripod Data Systems "take the garbage out, dear"

Reply to
Jerry Steiger

I don't think you have covered this in any of your tutorials. (If you have, just point me to it.) I know at least three people here at work who would love to see a presentation on this topic, as we run into issues all of the time that we suspect are due to changing face and edge IDs.

We have been bitten by this one any number of times. I suspect from the way you worded this that you don't have any good work-arounds. If you do we would love to hear about them.

Mutual trims also tend to "forget" some of the surfaces. We suspect that is due to the face/edge ID issues, but perhaps there are other reasons. Other than not putting too many surfaces in a single mutual trim (trims with two or three surfaces don't seem to fail as often as those with five or six), have you come up with any other techniques to minimize problems?

I haven't been bitten by this one yet, although I think at least one of my co-workers has. I will try and remember to stick with the old tried and true master and multiple child sketches that I probably learned from you so long ago.

I suspect that you or someone like you (not that I know anyone else like you!) could do a full presentation just on how show and hide work or don't work. Heaven only knows how many hours I have spent rolling up and down the tree trying to get the appropriate bodies hidden and shown. It's usually not too hard the first time you work on a feature, but going back later can result in a lot of hair on the floor.

The time you spend on your presentations shows. The people giving you the compliments aren't just being nice!

Not to me. And I don't think I'm all that different from the average attendee.

This does seem to be a really good idea. We've got people here who know an incredible amount about how to drive different parts of SolidWorks. Together we are incredibly smart!

Jerry Steiger Tripod Data Systems "take the garbage out, dear"

Reply to
Jerry Steiger

without being too analytical...2 comments Ed

1.Some people who give compliments and criticism are actually expressing hostility covertly and frequently subconsciously because your perceived ability challenges their own estimations of self worth. For instance I am actually angry inside that your ability is better than mine or receiving more attention I might make a compliment about it but then pull it apart very sweetly with fault finding or better it with advice or hints.Sometimes the purpose of their response is quite confusing but if at the end of it you will feel you have failed in some way they have succeeded in restoring themselves. It is all about restoring a needy ego at the expense of the other. Actually it doesn't have a lot to do with your ideas or you it is about the other person and their need to reaffirm their self worth externally continuously with overt demonstrations of their own ability. This isn't a very good thought pattern but some people live their entire lives inside it.... 2.Some people are over identified with conformity to group behaviour and will attack anything that looks or sounds threatening to that clique even to the point of being absurd in the defence of the obviously wrong. This is about gaining and maintaining acceptance and demonstrating belonging but it also is a power play at your expense designed to restore order to their harmonious world.Typically these people defend those whose favour they depend upon. Again it is actually about the other person and not you and again you will come out of this feeling you have committed some moral wrong against society.

So 2 types of people will find your independent thinking disturbing when you stand up and say things that contradict their perspective.

-those who are actually dread being inferior but find an exclusive knowledge is a useful vehicle for acting being superior.

-those types who dare not be an individual over belonging.

Reply to
neil

Who the hell is Mike Payne? and does anyone besides bankweer and cliff care?

Reply to
ms

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