Another MR garden railway.

How could you leave out Narrow Gauge & Short Line Gazette?

Only for Vegemite prospectors . . .

Roger: Q: Do you think a garden railroad is a model railroad?

First, you have to define "Model Railroad".

A model railroad, in my opinion, isn't an oval of track on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood.

Nor is it, in my opinion, a Lionel or other coarse scale layout.

Some of the layouts featured in Model Railroader aren't, to me, model railroads either. Some of those big "multimillion" dollar things the MR have recently featured for example. Or even Furlow's work..

Any of the above are either "train sets", operating dioramas or display layouts, not "model railroads".

So, some garden railways are model railroads, and some aren't. If fact, few of the ones I've ever seen in MR are what I'd call a model railroad.

Bit vague, but then so is my definition of a model railroad.

-- Cheers Roger T.

Roger; I have to jump in here. First off, based on the photos on your web site, your railroad should be featured in MR. Your railroad is "inspirational" with it's design for operation and great period modelling.

While I have to admit that MR seems to have taken a "slight" step backward of late, I do have to take issue with your latest comments. I model in HO, having ditched three rail Lionel at age 15 for the scale stuff.

I have been reading MR for 40 years (since I was 5, when I spent time just looking at pictures). Articles on large scale railroads are consistent with past articles that MR did on live steam.

I look to MR for inspiration. When I was younger, pictures of the "operating diorama" at the Museum of Science and Industry, and frequent visits, were inspiring. It was one of the many layouts that routed a pre-teen onto a lifetime track of modelling.

So no, I personally don't have a problem with the occasional garden railway article. And while I personally didn't even bother reading about Furlow's latest fantasy, I don't begrudge MR running that article either. That article works for some people.

For that matter, I wouldn't mind seeing MR feature a well executed Hi-Rail layout, such as the ones found on the following links: http://i.am/pennwest

...snippety snip.........

No doubt about it Jerry. No doubt about it.

The Great North Road of Francis Lee Jaques is a case in point. This railroad was featured in the May, 1962 issue. The GNR was an S gauge/O scale model railroad that featured all freelanced and scratch-built equipment. It was nothing if not a work of art. I know that it was certainly an inspiration to me and still is to this day. I keep that issue where I can look at it from time to time. If Jaques' work was to be featured today, we would get a week-long thread of bitching and moaning, decrying the sorry state of Model Railroader and the subject matter of their feature article. The Great North Road didn't do much. It was mostly a diorama with only a little operating potential, but it was a beautiful thing; AND- in its day, it was an avatar of model railroad philosophy. When you start critiquing MR, It's like this Jerry: Heads I win, tails you lose. In other words, you can't win.

..............F>

While I feel the same way as you, I really have to disagree with you! Our hobby is called "Model Railways/Railroads" but it encompasses a wide variety of hobbyists and pastimes. I divide the partakers into three major groups: Collectors, Modellers of railways and toy train players. Of course, I place myself into "the modeller of railways group :-) and feel very much superior to the others. My hobby keeps me enthralled because of the many facets the hobby brings:

- I'm building a representative collection (oops) of the rolling stock of my chosen prototype.

- I have to research the history of the era and location to do this.

- I build models; locos, wagons, coaches, buildings.

- I build benchwork.

- I design control systems.

- ...

- I operate trains.

- I play with trains. (ooops again)

I have spells of concentrating on each of these pastimes - it's more than a year since I last built a loco and my layout is presently stacked against the wall while I do 2000 minor and major jobs around our new home, the last of which (just ask my wife) will be remodelling the railway room. In the meantime, I'm a collector and control system developer, who sometimes puts an oval of track on the floor just to see trains run.

I guess I'm not a Model railroader. :-(

Regards. Greg.P.

chosen prototype.

year since I last built a loco and my layout is presently stacked against the wall while I do 2000 minor and major jobs around our new home, the last of which (just ask my wife) will be remodelling the railway room.

puts an oval of track on the floor just to see trains run.

IMHO, Greg, you are! :-))

As I stated previously one who is interested in and fascinated by railroad models is, at least by my definition, a model railroader.

He even has a magazine out there dedicated especially to "him" --- "Model Railroader".

How the term was intepreted to only include those with an indoor layout is beyond me.

Bruce

Actually Mark, what I consider elitist in model railroading is the attitude of 'If they arent doing something at least as detailed and realistic as what I'm doing, they aren't really model railroaders' --- Which seems, from certain statements you've made ("Its a garden railroad, not a model railroad"), to be your attitude on the subject.

No, I was implying that the word "butt" is meaningless to most Australians. The word "arse" - as you have used - is correct.

But one could reasonably say that it the normal state of affairs in Australia - otherwise we would not be in the mess we're in now.

All the best,

MaArk

I'm sorry if that's the implication I appear to be making, I'll spell it out.

They lacking - they lack appeal to me.

Obviously, they appeal to others, great. I couldn't give a toss, what you personally like or dislike, that's your affair.

Well, I will never regard garden railroading as model railroading, so I suppose in your eyes I'm an elitist. I couldn't give a toss, what your views are one way or the other, that's your affair.

I have no idea, why not simply say what you mean, little or no room for ambiguity then.

All the best,

Mark.

Yes, that is sadly now the case. I'm probably having a little difficulty in accepting that fact, but it is undeniable, nonetheless.

All the best,

Mark.

(snip)

Others may, I don't. I contend that model railroading and garden railroading are two separate and distinct pursuits.

All the best,

Mark.

Well, Captain, I observed that the current Kalmbach readership seemed to me a compliant and passive bunch, and the general tone of the responses to this post confirm that. Those of us who are critical of the editorial direction of MR are outnumbered by those who think it's just fine, and will keep on buying the mag. That's not speculative, that's what the posters to this thread are saying.

Mark.

Perhaps I'd better back-pedal a bit over my coarse scale comments?

As I said, defining a model railroad Vs a toy or garden one is sometimes difficult as I don't think there's a real dividing line. I guess it's really a subjective decision with a continuously floating dividing line.

When it comes to coarse scale, I was thinking more along those lines of those layouts where the trains zip around continuos circles of track, with little or no scenery or attention to detail. No matter how much money and or time has been invested in them, I still think of them as toy train layouts rather than model railways. But, that's my opinion. I'm not putting it forward as a proposal for a definition of what does, or doesn't make a model railway.

It's the same as many of the model railways featured in MR. Many of them exhibit fine scenery and detail, yet I don't think they are great model railroads, great layouts yes, because they don't fit my own, personal, definition of what I model railroad should be.

I belong to, for want of a name, the Tony Koester/Allen McCelland school of model railroaders. Unless a model railroad can be operated realistically, it doesn't turn my crank,even though it may have beautiful scenery and wonderfully detailed, a la anything by Furlow or George Sellios.

-- Cheers Roger T.

Precisely. I don't regard it as model railroading.

And when I'm at my mate's place running toy trains in his garden with a beer in my hand,

Who is exluding whom? I regularly visit a friend with a garden railway, and enjoy being part of a running session. I also regularly operate 5" gauge live steam. But even when I'm actively participating in either pursuit, I don't regard one or the other as model railroading. So, am I arrogantly excluding myself?

Mark.

So we disagree, Fair enough. I didn't elaborate about why why I regard garden railroads as being a distinct hobby to model railroads, so I disagree with your opinion that my distinction is arbitrary.

So you think the quality of MR is fine, fair enough also. Presumbaly, you'll keep buying it - I won't.

You haven't any picture at all, unless you are conversant with the issues concerning broadcast and print media in Australia, which I very much doubt. I, too like to know what is going on in the world, unfortunately the only mainstream media outlets available to me are a broadsheet and a government-owned broadcasting service that are renowned for their blatant left-wing bias, or a tabloid and some commercial broadcasters that are right-wing propaganda organs. So what kind of person does that make me, if I choose not to read or watch the crap that is on offer?

If the majority of the hobby who read MR are completely satified by it, then I'd say their taste is in their arse. But, again, that's your choice.

I don't give a bugger what scale you model in. I'm interested in more than one scale, why shouldn't you be? Likewise your choice of railroad. I can't even limit my interests to one country, let alone one railroad. As for your car, it would interest me about as much as your choice of washing machine, possibly less. And your mother was not someone you had any say in choosing, so your taste is an irrelevancy as far as she is concerned.

Oh? You haven't had much to do with any Australians, have you?

All the best,

Mark.

outnumbered by those who think it's just fine< The change of editor was a content direction change. So from now on it's simple a matter of watching the income/circulation. If it goes down farther then this editor _may_ not last if it goes up he will probably get a raise in salary. IMHO the income/circulation won't do anything it wouldn't have done anyway as the fact their sales went down was simply what happen to everybody else.