Flying Scotsman

Hi
Did the Flying Scotsman only run with passenger coaches, or did it also pull some freight cars?
//Søren Bay http://mtkfrichs.dk

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Yes, "Flying Scotsman" probably did, as did the rest of it's class, as they were regularly were diagrammed to pull freight trains. Even A4s, the class of locomotive that hold the world's speed record for steam, were diagrammed to haul freight trains.
-- Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the Great Eastern Railway http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra /

"Roger T." wrote
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they
class
diagrammed
Though in the case of A4s at least, these freights were the Aberdeen-London "Fast Fish" that ran to XP timings and was the LNER's second most important train after the Flying Scotsman. Understandably so, it probably made them more money!
Though express locos were ideally diagrammed for express passenger services, in practice anything powerful enough could be fitted into a spare turn to haul stock around, especially if it was fitted or fitted-head and could thus be run at more than 25mph. Publicity and swank was good for the railway company's image, but making a profit and keeping available motive power in use mattered rather more. (Bulleid got around wartime rationing of materials by solemnly swearing that the Merchant Navies were a mixed-traffic loco, though anything less suitable for the job you could scarcely imagine, especially on the adhesion front...)
It also depends in which period you model. When new, the big steam locos were reserved for top-link work: if you model the mid-60s then all steam, however fancy in its day, was officially regarded as third-division junk fit only for freight, banking and stopping work. Latterly in their careers, Jubilees were seen working four-van locals and the Britannias ended their days sent to Carlisle Kingmoor to keep freight moving over the upper reaches of the WCML while the diesels did the prestige passenger diagrams. A batch of A4s were sent to work services north of Edinburgh, but meanwhile the Eastern Region dieselised relatively early, so the remaining Pacifics were ruthlessly scrapped at Doncaster and the V2s, a better all-round loco, were caned into the ground on freight work before going the same way in short order. On other regions, it wasn't so much that Pacifics were demoted to freight, more that 9Fs were so much better locos that they were promoted (against headquarters advice) to express passenger duties.
Flying Scotsman was rescued for preservation in 1963 so didn't participate in this scramble, but if you're modelling 1965-68 there's little excuse to attach prestige coaching stock to Pacifics unless you're doing railtours.
Tony Clarke

Søren skrev:
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Thank you for the info!
But it did not run with both passenger coaches and freight cars at the same time - did it?
//Søren Bay http://mtkfrichs.dk

Søren wrote: Søren skrev:
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Reckon 99.99% of the group could say "Never!" Denmark more likely to win the World Cup :)
Such coach/freight trips were seen occasionally on isolated branches and were always hauled by smaller locomotives that were proper to the line.
Cheers Robt P.

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Some UK railways ran milk vams as part of passenger trains (the GW at one time, for sure, and there may have been others) and some sections of the L&NER included fish vans in passenger trains (the ex-NBR section did, there may have been other areas). Passenger trains might also include non-passenger stock (newspaper vans, parcels vans), but they looked very much more like passenger stock than the classical short-wheelbase goods wagons. Certainly any non-passenger stock marshalled in a main-line passenger train in the 20th century would have been "fitted" - that is, have continuous vacuum or air brakes - which most british goods stock of the 1920s-50s didn't have.

"Andrew Robert Breen" wrote
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The Midland Railway ran milk trains from Appleby on the Settle & Carlisle to London, but I've no recollection of them ever being part of passenger trains.
Where freight was operated in passenger trains I believe the stock had to be both vacuum fitted and 'XP' rated, but it was still very much an uncommon occurrence.
Although can I recall an odd van being attached to the rear of the occasional passenger train (usually DMUs) genuine mixed trains I never saw, even though as you say fish vans (very definitely 'XP' rated) did I believe work in passenger trains from here in Hull.
John.

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Genuine mix trains worked on the Hayling Island branch. IIRC, These trains ran with unfitted goods vehicles on the rear of the passenger coaches though I don't recall a brakevan on the rear, though I'd expect to find one.
-- Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the Great Eastern Railway http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra /

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 11:33:00 -0700, "Roger T."
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And the Culm Valley branch.
This was an Arthur Pain light railway, like the Southwold but standard gauge. Lightly laid and tightly curved. It served some creameries and had a large amount of milk traffic in tankers.
Until passenger services were withdrawn, it ran mixed trains of milk tanks sandwiched between brake thirds. Passengers were only carried in the leading one, with the trailing one used for the guard.
In steam days it was operated by Collett 0-4-2 tanks, and before that similar small engines.
In diesel days it was relaid to take type 2 engines. But by that time passenger service had been withdrawn.
It was the last use of gas lit carriages, using a pair of ex- Barry Railway brake thirds that were originally electrically lit. This was because the slow speeds (15mph max AFAIR) weren't thought to be enough to keep the batteries charged. When these were withdrawn they were replaced by a pair of ex- Eastern Region Thompson brake thirds, and these were taken off the branch for the batteries to be recharged.

Soren,
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Certain freight vehicles were attached to passenger trains. These were usually vans and would be designed for high speed work and would have fitted brakes as well. I'm not sure if the Flying Scotsman would have worked a passenger train with fitted vans, but I reckon it probably would have done since these types of trains were fairly common. The cargo carried would normally be one which required the fastest delivery speed - such as perishable foods or newspapers.
Jim.

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Ah well, what about delivery trips for coaching stock from works? I've seen several corridors marshalled at the head of a fitted freight with quite large LMS locos, including Pacifics, at the head.
Alistair Wright LMS Soc Coaching steward

"Søren" wrote
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Mixed trains were very unusual in the UK and mainly limited to little used branch line operations.
John.

hi occasionally it did pull express perishable frieght vans (fish marked with blue circle) either as whole train or as part of express passenger train. I also have it on the authority of a driver during the 1960's that the A3's (Flying Scotsmans class) and even A4's (Streamlined class of which Mallard was a member) were available for frieght duties but this was only towards the last days of steam. Hope this is of helpful
Dave
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A3s and A4s were used on goods trains in L.N.E.R. days, not just late BR days. Overnight fish trains were one of the scheduled goods trains that used even A4s.
-- Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the Great Eastern Railway http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra /

On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:32:22 -0700, "Roger T."
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Sometimes you got almost anything pulling anything.
It's not an A3 but there is a photograph of a GWR Queen class 2-2-2 operating a pick up goods on the Didcot, Newbury and Southampton line.

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And the Queens certainly worked mixed trains: there's a lovely bit in Ahrons about the milk wagons which in those days were attached to the main up west of england expresses and the late running which resulted from the excessively lactic qualities of the wessex cow.

On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:29:15 +0100, Graham Thurlwell
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But it's bad for their swerves...
Tim

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Someone must've thought it was a good idea because they actually ran a test in the 1920s!