Roger, you're wasting your time trying to get Greg to understand and
acknowledge your point. He has a passing acquaintance with German
safeworking, and mistakenly assumes that all railways throughout the
world operate in the same way as his prototype. In his myopic view,
*ANY* operation that doesn't conform to his criteria is just "slot cars"...
Mark, old buddy, I've had DCC since you were in nappies.
Any layout where the total extent of operation is mindlessly running trains
along a track is, IMHO, just "slotcar operation".
I've tried DCC - it doesn't add as much as it takes away from my style of
operation, plus it costs far too much for an established hobbyist and loco
But you wrote: -
"Yes, I went back. I run a model railway, not individual slot cars on rails.
ie the layout is not about driving individual trains around tracks but about
numerous trains operating at once to give an impression of the way
You're contradicting yourself. How can "not driving individual trains" and
"mindlessly running trains" be the same? They are two entirely different
Home of the Great Eastern Railway
Are you suggesting I should give up my model railway locomotives in favour
of electronics components??? Why?
I am, and have been for the last 35 years, been building up a roster of
locomotives to enable me to run almost anything that ran on my prototype
Why would I want to reduce that roster in favour of a control system that
can't achieve all that my present one does?
You aren't making any sense.
>>> I've tried DCC - it costs far too much for an established
>>> hobbyist and loco collection.
>> LOL! And what, the loco collection cost nothing?
> Are you suggesting I should give up my model railway locomotives in
> favour of electronics components???
I'm suggesting that the cost of DCC is a subjective figure. You knew that.
It's a very large figure that would need to come out of my wallet.
Figure 100 locos at circa $60- each, plus a control system and hand-helds;
we've reached $7000- without any change. Fitting the decoders would be a
year's work, setting the CVs another year ...
Five years after starting, technology would have moved so far that I would
be compelled to replace all the decoders.
Meanwhile, I would have a control system that wouldn't do what I need of it.
Maybe he went a little overboard on the time needed but for someone else
that has on that order a number of locos (when you can claim to have much of
the railroad you're modelling types you generally have a lot of locos,
especially when you can claim several of one class AND also be able to do
that iwth diesels!) then the cost of adding decoders is a major issure.
Those of you that are running 5-10 locos don't see the expense involved.
I'd rather walk into a club layout in some strange town and not be able to
run my locos because of them being DCC than to try and convert a DCC loco to
DC for an operating session on a DC layout.
BTW, what do the really large layouts use? DC or DCC? Also, what happens
to a layout when a good 100 locos are all running at a time?
As far as sound is concerned, it is easy to do sound on a DC layout. It is,
however, a bit expensive if you buy the commercial equipment as there aren't
that many sold and thus the price is high. I've heard excellent sound from
locos 30 years ago with the PFM sound system and it is a simple system ot
implement - just mix the sound with the track power through a transformer
and pick it up in the loco with a cap to drive the speaker.
Yeppie, Bush is such an idiot that He usually outwits
everybody else. How dumb!
You have to have a pretty old, or strange, decoder that won't run on DC.
What is a really large layout? The club I belong to has a 15'x100'
layout. With DC we are limited to 6 cabs. With DCC we have run 8
trains on the main (it's a pretty busy dispatcher at that point) and
some switching in the three primary yards. So we probably don't
qualify as a really large layout?
Dunno! Depends on what features the locos have, if they are all BLI
sound equipped you need lots of power districts (boosters). We just
upgraded to the 5 AMP boosters because we found that two 4 engine (all
BLI w/sound) trains (with all the lighted and sound cars) drew too
much power for the old <4 AMP boosters.
The lotto must be rigged, I should have won by now.
Modular furniture is cruel and unusual.
You are not one to speak of uninformed, as little as you know.
I don't believe you even have a complete knowledge of how your prototype of
operates. I think you just make it up as it suits you.
You are clearly uninformed on railway workings around the rest of the world.
It remains to be determined by someone better qualified than you whether I am
ignorant or not.
Obnoxious? Yes. That is deliberate, but ignorant? Hardly.
Yeah yeah, playing drivers is a different hobby to modelling and operating a
We're accusing each other of the same thing. ;-)
You're playing engine driver in isolation - I'm playing railway operation.
I don't believe the set-up time is greatly different between the two
- I cut the rail and wire in a $1 toggle switch, or equivalent. (in my case
a 78p relay)
- you spend hundreds/thousands of dollars on DCC control systems and
decoders with a maximum of 5 year life before replacement, and then spend
many hours milling chassis and soldering in decoders, more hours setting up
CVs and posting queries to news groups asking why ...
- I click on the section of track on the diagram I want switched off.
- you look up stock tables to find loco addresses, input numerous numbers
and settings and memorise totally non-prototypical strings of commands to
cause your locos to co-operate with one another and a hand controller.
- I click a single switch to link block and controller to run the train.
Unless your track and turnouts move along with the train, why would you need
a mobile control position for them? ;-)
Greg, do you really have a grasp on what North American prototypical
operation is all about? From your comments, I think not. My crew are not
"playing driver", if anything, from what I gather, that's what you do. You
run multiple passenger units from station to station. Now that's "playing
My crews, and the crews on other layouts I have operated on, move freight
and passengers using car-cards and waybills. The CC&WBs give routings and
it's up to the crews, as in real life, to forward those cars in the most
expeditious manner using the trains available. Some trains operate to a
time-table, usually just the passengers, but almost all the freight is run
On the layouts I have operated, nobody is "playing engine driver in
isolation". We are all part of the railway, moving passengers and freight
in a logical and realistic manner all co-ordianted by a dispatcher and
yardmaster(s). Our trains interchange with each other and we need to
conduct meets and sometimes passes in order for the whole railway to run
Nope, just enter the engine number into the throttle and away we go. BTW,
you need to catch up a bit. There's no need to mill any chassises these
days, the decoders are small enough to fit in almost anything. They all fit
easily into all 50 odd of my locos.
As do I but you play trains. I run a railroad.
Because all my operators and the same on other model railways I have
operated, walk around the room following the train they are controlling.
We don't have central control panels where the operator remains all the
time, we follow our trains and line the switches as required, right at the
switch, just like the prototype. Big central control panels went out with
the dinosaur, even when I used straight DC I had walk around panels. I've
never built a single model railway with a central control panel. Not in the
UK and not when I moved to Canada. And I built first layout as a teenager
around 1962 or so. I've always used remote panels and walk-around controls.
At best, we have a local panel (Which these days is more a track diagram
than a control panel) at various stations, yards and junctions, that may
have a few toggle switches that can isolate a track or two, if that's
required. I still use on/off toggles in engine yards and staging tracks for
example, so as to prevent accidental operation of locomotives and or trains
in these locations. After all, humans make mistakes and it's possible for
an operator to dial up engine No.118 instead of engine No.119 where engine
No.118 is in staging. This could have disastrous results. :-)
Anyway, you continue to play trains with your roundy-go-roundy multiple
units and I'll continue to operate the Great Eastern in a prototypical
Home of the Great Eastern Railway
I think I have a reasonable grasp of the subject, after all I've read most
that's been written about the subject over the last 60 years.
My crew are not
So driving trains is not playing driver???
You're saying that running one train is not playing driver but running
multiple trains is???
I would consider it "playing signalman".
Sure, that's a reasonable way to play, assuming that's what your prototype
did or does.
So you can't play "dispatcher" or "yardmaster" etc if you operate alone.
Our trains interchange with each other and we need to
Great, _but_ your operation is entirely dependant upon your having
sufficient individual locomotive operators to run each individual train.
That's a very definite restriction of either your system or DCC.
You need (as would I) the locomotive number to be able to do that.
Hence my comment of look-up tables.
I have a collection of locos from the 1970s through to 2006, as do most
modellers who have been in the hobby that long. Many are modified etc so I'm
not going to bin the lot, even if the prototypes I want were available off
You drive trains - I run a railway. (model :-)
So localized turnout control would do the job perfectly!?!
Sounds like you don't know your railroad's operating system!
Big central control panels went out with
Model or prototype???
even when I used straight DC I had walk around panels. I've
You're suggesting the UK doesn't have centralized traffic control???
So we do agree that DCC has limitations better served by block control.
I think we've both just realised that you don't do that!
Perhaps, but we run our trains as there is, in many cases, no such thing as
a "signalman". If we do have signalling systems, then it CTC and it's ilk
and that's controlled by a dispatcher who (usually) controls 120 plus miles
of track. Even without signalling, he'll still control 120 plus miles of
It does. As do all North American railways other than transit systems.
So can I when I operate alone.
It's not a "restriction", it's how we chose to operate our trains, everyone
of them controlled by a human. No automation, no mindless roundy-go-roundy.
I/we don't look up tables, I/we look at the locomoitve and read the number
from there. :-)
No, I run a railway that has a purpose and moves passengers and freight for
All my switches are hand operated, at the switch, interlocking, no signals,
switch motors etc., etc..
Come on, don't be stupid.
No I'm not. I said that's what I did. I didn't mention anything else.
No more than DC has under exactly the same circumstances. "WHO HAS MY
TRAIN?" Heard frequently with DC block control systems.
Geeze, I operate with time-table and train orders and use car-cards and
waybills to generate freight. Obviously Greg, you don't have a clue what
you are talking about otherwise you wouldn't be making a stupid statement
such as that. I know more about prototype operation than you'd think, from
two continents. I've worked for BR in the UK, as a 16 year old fireman and
for a railway in Canada out of Montreal.
Now, lets hear about your railway experience.
Home of the Great Eastern Railway
You really don't have a clue how real railways work, at least in North
Roger T. wrote:
>>> Greg, do you really have a grasp on what North American
>>> prototypical operation is all about? From your comments, I think
>> I think I have a reasonable grasp of the subject, after all I've
>> read most that's been written about the subject over the last 60
> It doesn't sound like you do.
Of course Greg doesn't have a reasonable grasp of the subject . In
previous exchanges he's displayed a profound ignorance of North American
prototype operations. And when he's called on it he either acts the
outraged innocent, or claims that railroads "couldn't possibly operate
in such a fashion as described".
>>> Anyway, you continue to play trains with your roundy-go-roundy
>>> multiple units and I'll continue to operate the Great Eastern in
>>> a prototypical manner.
>> I think we've both just realised that you don't do that!
> Geeze, I operate with time-table and train orders and use car-cards
> and waybills to generate freight. Obviously Greg, you don't have a
> clue what you are talking about otherwise you wouldn't be making a
> stupid statement such as that. I know more about prototype operation
> than you'd think, from two continents. I've worked for BR in the UK,
> as a 16 year old fireman and for a railway in Canada out of Montreal.
> Now, lets hear about your railway experience.
He has *none*. And yet he the effrontery to continually tell those who
*do* have professional operating experience that they don't know what
they're talking about.
Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.